Author Topic: Chris's Mann Wagon Build  (Read 16433 times)

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #390 on: July 31, 2020, 10:46:44 PM »
Hi Chris, what I meant with the pre-formed comment was just that doing any forming to a piece of sheet or rod stock makes a point where bending will happen first if load is applied later. Good analogy is the crease on a car fender. If any force is applied later it will bend at the crease. With an unbent sheet it is hard to say where bending may occur under load.

Another way to think of the loading, although not the same as your wheels, is  wire formed bicycle spokes. They are very small and very strong and work beautifully to support huge loads for the size of the wire. However if they are ever bent or kinked in the span between rim and hub they will bend and fail there with loads later.

Hope this helps.  :cheers:
Gotcha!!  Thanks.  I am thinking that I will take your idea of another steel spoke disc inside the two copper ones, with narrower spokes so they don't show.  Great idea, thanks!

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #391 on: August 01, 2020, 02:09:38 AM »
Okay, been thinking about CNR's suggestion, and looked through the bar stock that I have handy, think there is a decent solution available. I have a slab of 3/8" thick 6061 aluminum in the pile (think one end of it was used on some gears previously). If I cut a pair of discs (one for each wheel) out of it, and turn them down so each side matches the taper shape of the spokes, I get this:

The holes around the outside are 60 degrees apart, to match the spokes, and the OD matches the ID of the wheel tube. Then, I can make saw cuts either side of each spoke, and chain drill/mill out the wedges at the hub:
This gives a set of strong spokes that are narrower than the ones in the copper plates, while matching the width between the plates, so the plates can be bolted onto these inner spokes, giving the right look to match the original. The pins at the ends can be inserted through the wheel rim tube to hold it all together. Should be plenty strong, and not too hard to make. The end look would be a cross section similar to this:



One question, I have not used 6061 for a lot of parts: If I make saw cuts to remove the wedges, is the aluminum liable to shift much, like the way cold rolled steel does due to rolling stresses? I assume that the ali is more of an extruded material (no idea, am guessing), so it would not have the same stresses?? If it does have the stresses, I can leave more material on each spoke and do a truing pass on the mill (was going to cut close so I just need a cleanup pass to remove saw marks).  I know there are those here that use aluminum a lot more than I do - what say you?

 :cheers:

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #392 on: August 01, 2020, 02:13:52 AM »
Chris--I use a lot of 6061 in the models I build, and it is quite stable. I have never seen it move like steel or brass during or after machining.---Brian

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #393 on: August 01, 2020, 02:16:11 AM »
Chris--I use a lot of 6061 in the models I build, and it is quite stable. I have never seen it move like steel or brass during or after machining.---Brian
Excellent! That will make fabricating the spokes a lot easier. Thanks!!

Offline john mills

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #394 on: August 01, 2020, 04:21:48 AM »
 if it is a strip material it may be extruded  with may be better if it is sheet it could be rolled i don't know but it would depend on the size. i have had sheet move just like the other materials .I usually try and take the same amount of both sides and make sure to machine both sides.some times it will move and other times it does not
care in how it is held not to put any load or stress on the material the size you may use it may not be noticeable .
I am following your build your making great progress.
   John

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #395 on: August 01, 2020, 04:27:14 AM »
if it is a strip material it may be extruded  with may be better if it is sheet it could be rolled i don't know but it would depend on the size. i have had sheet move just like the other materials .I usually try and take the same amount of both sides and make sure to machine both sides.some times it will move and other times it does not
care in how it is held not to put any load or stress on the material the size you may use it may not be noticeable .
I am following your build your making great progress.
   John
Thanks John, it is 3/8" x 6" flat bar. Guess I will find out some while cutting out the discs, see if the saw kerfs change widths.

Offline old-and-broken

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #396 on: August 01, 2020, 04:40:29 AM »
Stress relief recommendations are all over the map for aluminum alloys


General view is 350 F.      3 hours.    If the wife leaves the kitchen unguarded.   😁
A journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step.

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #397 on: August 02, 2020, 04:53:20 PM »
Okay, catching up on the pictures - I band-sawed out a couple of discs of the 6061 aluminum (did not see any deflection in the cuts, this alloy looks pretty stable as Brian said) and trued them up on the mill (the final diameter just fits on the lathe, the rough cut did not).

Moved the arbor over to the lathe, and tapered in the sides with the compound tool rest to match the shape of the copper plates:

After LOTS of long curly shavings filling up the waste can, had two discs that the copper plates fit nicely on.

Back over to the mill to cut in the spokes, which will be narrower than the ones in the plates so there is a recess behind them. This is where I was going to just saw in from the rim, but I changed my mind (common when making things up as I go) and cut them in like I did on the plates, just with larger openings. Started with the arc at the rim,


then finished along the spokes and hub:

Here is the first one with the plates held in place, still need to finish the spokes on the second one:

I like this look, it better resembles the real ones, with cast or welded up plates. After getting the second disc finished up, I can start drilling for the patterns of bolts that holds it all together. For proper look, they will likely be 1-72 or 0-80 size, the 2-56 would be too chunky. Then can get started on the rim, and drilling through the ends of the spoke and rim for the pins to hold it all together.
CNR, thanks again for a great idea, keep em comin!
 :cheers: :cheers:

Offline tghs

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #398 on: August 02, 2020, 05:12:06 PM »
that gives them the big and thick look as in the vids of the real trucks,, must be about burying the elves in swarf!!!
what the @#&% over

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #399 on: August 02, 2020, 05:44:44 PM »
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

That construction looks VERY strong Chris, and also very realistic. Well done!

In the centre-to-side flange joints, you might be able to get away with some good epoxy type glue between alum and copper and very few tiny screws.  :cheers:

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #400 on: August 02, 2020, 05:57:54 PM »
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

That construction looks VERY strong Chris, and also very realistic. Well done!

In the centre-to-side flange joints, you might be able to get away with some good epoxy type glue between alum and copper and very few tiny screws.  :cheers:
The real ones have a pattern of bolts, figure I will mimic that layout. Several bolts at the outer end of each spoke, and a ring around the hub at the base of the spokes.


Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #401 on: August 02, 2020, 10:33:46 PM »
Some more done on the wheels this afternoon after time out reading/napping on the porch - worked out the pattern of the bolts and drilled the holes at either ends of the spokes:

Then used the little proxxon drill press to drill matching holes in the copper plates - clamped them onto the spokes one at a time, andwith them clamped together, the parts were held copper-side-down onto a wood block and hand-aligned for drilling, using the holes in the aluminum as guides. Then the really tedious part has begun, running in four dozen sets of 0-80 screws, with nuts at both ends. This is going to take a while.

Here is a view from the other side - you can see the heads of the 0-80 screws, they will get trimmed off after everything is tightened up.

Even with nut drivers and wrenches, this is slow going, but the end appearance is worth it.

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #402 on: August 03, 2020, 12:27:37 AM »
And the first spoke set is bolted up (still need to trim the screw heads off the other side) and nuts all tightened, time for a test fit to see how it will look on the wheel:

As Don likes to say,  I Like!!!

So, one set down, one to go, then can start trimming the rims and getting them attached to the spokes. The outside diameters will get trued to the axle if needed, and the slots cut in on the tread.
Thanks again to all those who helped with advice on these parts, much appreciated!   :cheers:

Offline Don1966

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #403 on: August 03, 2020, 12:48:15 AM »
Yep.....I..........like.........   :Love:




 :drinking-41:
Don

Offline Craig DeShong

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #404 on: August 03, 2020, 01:02:18 AM »
Love the wheels Chris  :cheers:

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Craig