Author Topic: Chris's Mann Wagon Build  (Read 130123 times)

Offline Don1966

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2020, 04:45:26 PM »
 :Love:



Don

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2020, 07:21:41 PM »
Glad to have you guys along for the ride!

Today got the blanks for the endcaps sawn out from some copper sheet, and turned the wood formers down to size for this boiler (reusing ones from another boiler that was slightly larger diameter).

Since the weather is rain and thunderstorms today, I am going to wait to get the endcaps outside to anneal/form/anneal/form/etc them into shape. So, got the blanks for the engine mounting plate, stack base plate, and steering assembly mounting plate cut from the extra tube from the boiler. When cut lengthwise, it expanded the inside diameter slightly which was a very close match to the OD of the shell, got lucky there. Those pieces are at the left in the photo. Also made the bronze plugs for the water fill and blowdown bushings from some round bar - threaded the ends then milled in the hex on the cap portion before parting off from the bar.


Offline scc

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2020, 07:25:52 PM »
He's off again :o   I cannot cope with the pace of work,  and I'm just watching.  I'm going to lie down somewhere quiet!!! Well done Chris

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2020, 07:27:19 PM »
He's off again :o   I cannot cope with the pace of work,  and I'm just watching.  I'm going to lie down somewhere quiet!!! Well done Chris

Too much thunder here to take a nap, so I had to go play in the shop some more!  Yeah, thats my excuse!   :Lol:

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2020, 12:13:36 AM »
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

For the flanging ops on the boiler endplates, I suggest you hire those two elf candidates that applied to your ad for additional elves - one was A.Neal and the other was Mal Ett.   :shrug:

Be sure to tell them that pilferage of Mann boiler endplates for use as jumbo frypans for elves is NOT allowed. And suggest you check the spirit locker so there's Navy rum available for the cool down party....... :cheers:    :Lol:
"I've cut that stock three times, and it's still too short!"

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2020, 12:21:53 AM »
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

For the flanging ops on the boiler endplates, I suggest you hire those two elf candidates that applied to your ad for additional elves - one was A.Neal and the other was Mal Ett.   :shrug:

Be sure to tell them that pilferage of Mann boiler endplates for use as jumbo frypans for elves is NOT allowed. And suggest you check the spirit locker so there's Navy rum available for the cool down party....... :cheers:    :Lol:
Ah, someones been sniffing the solder flux again!   :ROFL:

Offline samc88

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2020, 08:50:19 PM »
Looking forward to following this one, I do like a steam wagon

Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk


Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2020, 08:57:10 PM »
Welcome aboard!

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2020, 09:22:19 PM »
On to one of the really fun parts, forming the endcaps for the boiler shell. These started out as discs cut from some 3/32" thick copper sheet (been using the same sheet for boilers since my Shay build, still enough left for several more) plus a pair of hardwwod formers turned to size.  The formers were cut to slightly over the ID of the boiler shell minus twice the thickness of the sheet. During the forming process, the rim of the flange got about .015 to .020 thicker than it started, since it had to absorb the material beyond the finished diameter. The rim will be turned to be a good fit in the boiler shell, leaving just a slight space for the silver solder to wick into.

So, with the storms last night/yesterday past, and the next round not here yet, I set up outside with a portable workbench and the Sievert propane torch with a medium/large nozzle to use in annealing the parts. The copper comes half-hard, meaning it will bend a bit but not that much. To anneal it so it is soft enough to bend, it is heated to a dull red with the torch then cooled by dunking in a bucket of water (carefully, as it goes in it can pop out very hot drops of water/steam). With copper/brass, quenching or air cooling is not much different, and unlike steel heating then quenching it makes it softer, not harder. The only way to harden copper is to work it, either bending or hammering.

Started by annealing both pieces, and clamped them one at a time between the formers. Then went around the rim with a plastic mallet (available from jewelry tool suppliers), starting the bend of the rim down. Its important to work around the whole thing, not taking a lot down in one spot then moving on, to keep from forming creases in the metal - it needs to flow into neighboring sections as it bends to take up the extra metal. Here it is after one round of hammering (since the clamp is in the way, need to go most of the way around then turn th parts). Not a lot of change, but after a few hits it stops moving the metal and the hammer just bounces off. You dont want to keep hammering, or you risk cracking it.

Back to the torch, reannealed the metal, and second round:

You can see how it is flowing the metal down, spots like the one sticking out a bit at the right side in the last picture are the first hit in the next round, so it does not form a crease. By the third round, it is getting close to the cup shape:

After the fourth round of annealing/hammering:

The waves are there but not bad, those high spots are hit first in the next round:

One more set after that one, and they were done.

On the last round, they tend to have gripped into the wood at the rim, so it takes a little prying with a large screwdriver to get the part off the former. Any spots where the prying bent something are easily tapped back into smooth shape. Here it is after some cleaning up and a dip in the pickle solution to remove the soot left from the torch:

The rim is pretty smooth on the surface that will touch the boiler shell, but the raw edge is wavy - that is another sign that the metal has flowed during the forming, since the original disc had smooth edges. Just as I was finishing up outside, the next round of rain moved in - lucky timing! Next steps will be to put the parts on the lathe and turn the raw edges back smooth, and turn the OD of the rim down to fit the boiler shell. The wood formers will be used again for that - one srewed to the faceplate (which is how they were made originally, so the screw holes are already there), and the other pushed against it by the tailstock to keep the part from coming off the first former. After that, can start in the next stage of machining, which is to bore the holes for the firetube and the bushings in the backhead, followed by making the stiffening ribs inside the caps.
 :cheers:

Offline Johnmcc69

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2020, 10:47:01 PM »
 :ThumbsUp:
 Good stuff Chris!
 What info/calculations/"Elfinology" did you use to calculate the wall thickness, stays required, & boiler volume required for this particular engine?
 
 John

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2020, 11:02:57 PM »
:ThumbsUp:
 Good stuff Chris!
 What info/calculations/"Elfinology" did you use to calculate the wall thickness, stays required, & boiler volume required for this particular engine?
 
 John


Hi John,


My go-to reference for boilers is the appendix in the book by Kozo, Building The New Shay (his second book about Shays). He has a great set of tables and charts showing thicknesses and spacings for copper model boilers, including stays, ribs, etc. Very clearly laid out.
The volume of this boiler was determined by the scaled down original, it should work out fine. Original one was coal fired, mine will be a single firetube butane burner. I would guess at something like a 20 to 30inute run time at most before needing more water. I may put a Goodall fitting on the water fill bushing, it has a tapered opening on top connected to a tube inside with a hole in the side, covered with silicone tubing. A special pump bottle has a flexible hose ending with a matching tapered tip, allows adding water anytime without other valves. They are very common on gauge 1 loco models.


This is the first compound engine I have made, want to make two sets of pipes to run it compound or simple, curious to experiment with air and steam usage. For static running on air, may need it in simple mode, not sure. Main desire is outdoor running on steam, with RC control of steering.

Offline Johnmcc69

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2020, 11:34:02 PM »
Thank you Chris! I'll have to check out the book. I'm trying to get a better understanding of boiler requirements so I can design some boilers at model scale. You just can't beat the experience of an engine running on steam.

 John

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2020, 12:05:42 AM »
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

(head now fully clear of flux fumes - and no, I won't say that five times fast!    :o   :Lol:)
"I've cut that stock three times, and it's still too short!"

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2020, 12:10:03 AM »
Thank you Chris! I'll have to check out the book. I'm trying to get a better understanding of boiler requirements so I can design some boilers at model scale. You just can't beat the experience of an engine running on steam.

 John
Check around and see if there is a live steam club in your area, they would have lots of info too. I know there is one up the other side of Buffalo from you, but thats a bit of a hike. The live steam loco clubs usually have a qualified inspector who can give lots of details on local rules, especially important if you want to run at a public event.
The Kozo books are great in general with lots of great fabrication tips, especially his later books (the earlier ones were a bit light on text, but he is a wizard at drawings to convey a sequence of operations which made up for it). They are a little pricey but I think well worth it. Amazon has them usually, or you can order direct from Village Press's storefront online. The New Shay book has lots of info on building that particula boiler, plus an appendix with lots more general info. The boiler I am doing is very basic in design, the coal ones with a water-jacketed firebox get a lot more involved.
 :cheers: :cheers:

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Mann Wagon Build
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2020, 12:10:58 AM »
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

(head now fully clear of flux fumes - and no, I won't say that five times fast!    :o   :Lol: )
Hmmm, your pun-quotient does seem to vary with the fume intensity....  :Jester:

 

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