Author Topic: Artificial intelligence in Use  (Read 660 times)

Offline deltatango

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Melbourne, Australia
Artificial intelligence in Use
« on: May 06, 2020, 11:07:00 PM »
It looks like Microsoft have added some AI for detecting the subject of pictures in OneDrive folders. Here are some of its first efforts on my pictures:



The "Bicycle" makes some sort of sense but I really don't build things in the "Kitchen", that would be asking for trouble.

Artificial for sure but "Intelligent"?

DAvid
Don't die wondering!

Offline crueby

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10410
  • Rochester NY
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2020, 11:25:33 PM »
 :Lol:
Maybe you have the worlds only indexable insert pastry whisk....

And that should be a unicycle!

Online Mcgyver

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
  • Toronto
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2020, 11:40:23 PM »
Good old Microsoft.  Maybe if you restart it?

To the marketing people, y=mx+b is artificial intelligence.   Michio Kaku is a physics Proff but also like Carl Sagan as done a lot fo popularize science.  In his book "Physics of the Future" he puts AI near the bottom of the list of fantastic things that might happen.  He said something like "we're a long way off from AI rivalling the intelligence of even a beetle.  I think he puts teleportation and micro machines in your blood fixing cells as more doable

Offline deltatango

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Melbourne, Australia
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2020, 01:05:45 AM »
Hi crueby, That cutter is on the high speed head so it could be a 4000 RPM pastry whisk :o

The ordinary vertical head would turn a dough hook very well indeed, maybe I'll keep quiet about that :-X

If the unicycle had some pedals then your elves could ride it round the floor, all night long...

Mcgyver: I did restart it - three times now. The truly scary thing is that AIs are being touted as better than medicos for diagnosis - help!

In order to post the original picture I did a screen capture into Onedrive which, of course, the AI had to try to classify:



Have to wait 'till tomorrow to see what it does with this one. Wonder if I can drive it into infinite recursion?  >:D

If you don't hear any more from me then MS have caught on.

David
Don't die wondering!

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1723
  • Søften - Denmark
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2020, 11:53:53 AM »
Quote
The truly scary thing is that AIs are being touted as better than medicos for diagnosis - help!

There's a few good reason why that is the case - and it IS THE CASE. In medicine you let the AI have access to tens off thousands of X-Rays and CT-Scans and a reference batch where experts have marked all the Cancer cells (or another decease) they can identify. You then let the Program (that is what AI is) run for quite some time and it learns. The experts can usually identify 75-80% (if memory serves) off the cancer cells - but the AI ends up identifying better than 99% every time => you have a MUCH better chance of survival if AI does the diagnose + when the AI have learned all the diseases that can be identified from X-rays od CT-scans it will also report those even if you only came in for something else and that NEVER happens with doctors as they are only experts in one area - I had a friend that died for that reason  :'(

Microsoft apparently have a much wider scope and it will take the AI MUCH longer to learn for that reason - on the other hand - the bigger the data and reference the better the end result (after much longer time) .....

Offline MJM460

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1093
  • Melbourne, Australia
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2020, 12:22:06 PM »
I have to agree with you there Admiral.

The real problem is with the self proclaimed experts on the media, who, having found Mcgyvers equation, think they can extrapolate it to infinity either direction, based on  a minimal, closely spaced data set.

I think most of them even treat b as an externality!

Another branch of AI is used in the Apple spell substituter, which seems to go out of its way to destroy meaning in any technical discourse, by making random and illogical “corrections” to correctly spelled words.  It’s even quite insistent some times.

Must say something about the quality of the data set they rely on, obviously not reviewed by experts as in your example.  And I am no expert in that area.  I am sure you will have seen errors I make in commonly misspelled word, or even uncommon ones.  The real trouble is that it is happy with those!

So not only “Oils ain’t oils”, but “AI ain’t all AI”.

MJM460

The more I learn, the more I find that I still have to learn!

Online Mcgyver

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
  • Toronto
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2020, 01:06:20 PM »

 I did restart it - three times now. The truly scary thing is that AIs are being touted as better than medicos for diagnosis - help!


that was a pot shot at MS  :)

after reading Kakus' book, he has me fairly convinced AI is little more than a marketing slogan, like new & improved detergent.    That's a program that identifies a pattern and compares it to database, a set of instructions....perhaps long and complicated but still just a set of instruction a machine follows.  The learning is just adding to a database.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 01:21:43 PM by Mcgyver »

Offline deltatango

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Melbourne, Australia
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2020, 01:19:13 PM »
OK, The original comment was partly tongue-in-cheek and I didn't intend to start a discussion, just provide a little bit of humour at the expense of a machine.

I'm sorry to hear of your loss Admiral , I've lost a few family members and friends to cancer and heart disease but never seen an erroneous diagnosis contribute to any of those.

AI systems can certainly be very good at labeling dysplastic cells in images of cells from a biopsy or looking for problem cells in a blood smear and so mark them for the attention of a human, but I think the diagnosis is always made by a human medical expert. If it was my sample then I'd want to be able to discuss the diagnosis (particularly if the prognosis might be poor) with a human rather then try to argue with a machine.

As MJM says the datasets used for training the AI system have to be correctly chosen and labelled and that process only captures the original human expertise.

One advantage a machine may have is that it doesn't get tired, human pathologists and radiologists may do.

David
Don't die wondering!

Online Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13356
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2020, 01:22:34 PM »


after reading Kakus' book, he has me fairly convinced AI is little more than a marketing slogan, like new & improved detergent.    That's a program that identifies a pattern and compares it to database, a set of instructions....perhaps long and complicated but still just a set of instruction a machine follows.  Learning is just adding to a database.

Currently so called "AI" is normally one of many pattern matching technologies. Its "Intelligence" is restricted by the patterns is has been shown/hard coded etc. into it. A major issue is what it is taught: So often academics have taught their technologies based on themselves i.e. white Western middle class men and when it is shown someone of a different colour/race/sex etc it gets it wrong. Once you go out of the range of its experience it is not surprising it gives the wrong answer.

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1723
  • Søften - Denmark
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2020, 08:17:58 PM »
I'm sorry I didn't get the joke David - I'm reasonably good with English, but it is my second language, so ....

I'm not saying that the final decision should be made by the computer, but we already have them do surgery here in Denmark that the computer does better than the best doctor and that is according to the doctors themselves .... I should point out that this is NOT general surgery - but very special kind of operations.

I also think you more or less hit the nail on the head with you comment about time. In my friends case, he had an experimental operation for Pancreas Cancer and it was a huge success (it was removed, emptied, filled with Chemo, put in the oven for 60 minutes @ 50 degrees C, emptied, rinsed in water, filled up with blood and put back into him). So at a control MRI Scan, six months later, they looked for any signs of cancer where they expect it to be and found none -> you're good, see you again in a year (if memory serves). Next scan showed a brain tumor they could fix that he didn't have earlier - so they looked again at the previous scan and lo and behold it was very clearly on the backside on one of his eyes (where they didn't look). The computer would have checked the complete scan data and found it -> removal of that eye and he would most likely still be here .....
That is one part of it - the other one is that the doctors / experts only look for what they are experts in - but the AI could be looking for all kind of diseases it has learned to recognize ....

I know that Astronomy makes gigantic strides forward today because of AI analyzing the data and the same goes in a lot of other fields too + the rate of this is progressing almost exponentially for the moment and that is why Google, Apple, MS, FB, etc are 'offering so many things for free' as they need good data and correction / confirmation that the data is good (user provided). The later has also been mentioned above by some of you - the AI is only as good as the reference Data allows.

Sorry for my long rant and best wishes

Per

Offline MJM460

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1093
  • Melbourne, Australia
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2020, 01:08:02 PM »
Hi Admiral, I don’t think you need be to concerned about your English.  I have met many people who do nothing like as well, and it is their first language.  And jokes like that sometimes require knowledge of some local topic of conversation.  It can easily go over anyone’s head, usually mine!

I am sorry to hear about your friend.  It is always sad when we lose a friend, and the thought that it was before time due to oversight is never any consolation. 

MJM460

The more I learn, the more I find that I still have to learn!

Online Mcgyver

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
  • Toronto
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2020, 01:31:30 PM »

I know that Astronomy makes gigantic strides forward today because of AI analyzing the data and the same goes in a lot of other fields too + the rate of this is progressing almost exponentially for the moment and that is why Google, Apple, MS, FB, etc are 'offering so many things for free' as they need good data and correction / confirmation that the data is good (user provided). The later has also been mentioned above by some of you - the AI is only as good as the reference Data allows.


Your English is very good.  ESL doesn't always put one in 2nd place.  I work with a young Chinese Engineer (grew up there) who's English is probably better than 90% of the staff.  He learned through discipline, not a shoddy school system :)

The criticism isn't of the great things being done, its the calling it AI.  Its a Jo points out pattern recognition which isn't AI as the scientific community once envisioned it.  One programmers comment, to paraphrase, the marketers would call y=mx+b AI. 

No rant, its not emotive for me, but of interest after reading the view of Kaku and that there seems to be a marketing impetus to hang the AI tag on things
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 01:34:36 PM by Mcgyver »

Offline deltatango

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Melbourne, Australia
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2020, 01:50:20 PM »
Hi Per,
you really do not need to apologise for your English, it is very, very much better than my (non-existent) Danish! I've visited Copenhagen once and the spoken English was a lot easier to understand than that in parts of England itself (and I grew up in Yorkshire...). Also I certainly wouldn't call your post a "rant", maybe another English word that means different things to different people.

I didn't intend to start a serious discussion but the members of MEM have turned the topic into something more than a simple joke at the expense of the software.

One thing I'll try to remember in future is the point made by Jo and others that labelling "pattern matching" as "Artificial Intelligence" is misleading. And don't forget that GIGO - Garbage In Garbage Out - has been a term in computing for as long as I've been involved (very close to 50 years).

David
Don't die wondering!

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1723
  • Søften - Denmark
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2020, 05:52:20 PM »
Quote
And don't forget that GIGO - Garbage In Garbage Out - has been a term in computing for as long as I've been involved (very close to 50 years).

Amen to that - it's also the most important term in ISO9000 (quality assurance)  :ThumbsUp:  - and I believe that the common saying that covers it is : You can't polish a turd ....

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1723
  • Søften - Denmark
Re: Artificial intelligence in Use
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2020, 05:53:58 PM »
Quote
And don't forget that GIGO - Garbage In Garbage Out - has been a term in computing for as long as I've been involved (very close to 50 years).

Amen to that - it's also the most important term in ISO9000 (quality assurance)  :ThumbsUp:  - and I believe that the common saying that covers it is : You can't polish a turd ....

I can also agree on the comment about humor requiring common references (it certainly helps)  ;D