Author Topic: solder kozo new shay crankcase  (Read 1566 times)

Offline cmitcham

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solder kozo new shay crankcase
« on: January 09, 2020, 02:59:16 AM »
the crankcase is ready for cleaning/soldering. kozo says "two or more heating/acid-cleaning steps will be required"

does this mean i should only flux up / screw in place 2 of the bulkheads to for a first session, then acid clean again and flux up the remaining 2? i do have the higher temp black flux.

thanks for all advice!

edit - and oh yea, is this nozzle and mapp gas going to be enough "umph"?

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2020, 03:55:07 AM »
When I built Kozos new shay I got part way into the build and had to upgrade from the mapp gas to a sievert propane rig, run off grill tank propane tank. That case may be at the limit of what the mapp torch will do, I think it will work. It definitely won't be able to make it for the boiler, just too much mass. I assembled the whole case and soldered it together, keeps things aligned the best. You may need a couple sessions to get solder in all the joints, since it wont flow uphill, best to angle it to put solder in the lower corners, clean it and roll over to do the other angles. I don't remember the details of how many sessions I did.
I have a build thread here


https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/building-kozos-new-shay-locomotive.23204/page-17

It was my first big build, and learned a ton from that book, he teaches a lot!

Offline Kim

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2020, 05:17:17 AM »
the crankcase is ready for cleaning/soldering. kozo says "two or more heating/acid-cleaning steps will be required"

does this mean i should only flux up / screw in place 2 of the bulkheads to for a first session, then acid clean again and flux up the remaining 2? i do have the higher temp black flux.

thanks for all advice!

edit - and oh yea, is this nozzle and mapp gas going to be enough "umph"?

Yes, if he says multiple steps, it means just what you describe - clean, flux and prepare one or two of the joints, solder them, then pickle and clean the parts.  Now, setup another joint or two and do them.  It takes a while, but trying to do too many joints at one time can be problematic because all the flux will boil off on the later joints and they start getting that sooty build up that makes it so the solder won't bond.  So aiming for fewer joints in more sessions really does work - as long as you clean well between soldering sessions!

And as Chris said, if you're going to do two joints in the same heating session, then make sure they both are working in the same direction - that the solder is flowing the same way, preferably with gravity to assist.

Kim

Offline Kim

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2020, 05:23:34 AM »
And as much as possible, heat from the opposite side that you're applying the solder (preferably the bottom).  And apply the most heat to the biggest part!

And in my case - since I use Oxy-Acetylene, I have to be very careful NOT to leave the heat in the same place for too long.  I've found that using the upper part of the flame (where its orange, and not blue/white) gives a gentler, more general heat.  But it will still melt brass pretty quickly if I leave it in one place.  You're using MAPP, so you likely won't have that problem.  You're problem will be getting enough heat to get the joint up to temp quick enough before all the flux boils away.  If the flux starts to boil off I've found you can add some flux - just don't put the flux brush in the flame or it torches up and makes a worse mess.   But you can put some flux on the hot joint and it can help to clean up the scorched stuff that was there.  Not ideal, but I've done it many times if the flux has all boiled away.

Also, make sure you have that pointy hook thing that Kozo describes - that's very useful for adding a dab of flux here and there (better than a brush) and for helping the solder know which why you want it to flow if it gets confused :)

Kim

Offline cmitcham

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2020, 02:04:06 AM »
thanks guys, i was hoping to hear from you two. as soon as it warms up a little, i'll attempt the solder :)

chris, the greatest day of my fledgling hobby machinist career was the day i found your shay build thread. since then, my mill or lathe nevers powers on until i have studied both the kozo and the crueby manual. as great as the kozo instructions are, since i have almost identical machines as yours, seeing what you did is often even better than kozo!

hopefully much more to come soon. after a completely dismal performance in 2019, i'm calling 2020 the year of the shay. so far, so good.

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2020, 02:17:41 AM »
Awesome to hear it was so useful! That build was really the turning point in my machining hobby, before that one I had done  just small engines and kits. I learned a lot of new skills from Kozo. Without it I would never have attempted the Lombard and Marion projects. Please keep us posted on the progress of your build!


Chris

Offline Mcgyver

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2020, 02:23:15 PM »
edit - and oh yea, is this nozzle and mapp gas going to be enough "umph"?

Is this soft solder or silver solder?  I've used propane and air for ages for SS, the temperature is plenty high enough, but with those bricks you many not get enough heat.

Those bricks look like the heavy, durable type you'd use with fireplace masonry work.  You'd find a big difference with insulated fire bricks.  IFB's are super light, i.e. you cut through them with a hacksaw in a minute.  The difference is dramatic; the heavy FB's substantially increase the amout of heat you have to apply, whereas the IFB's don't absorb the heat- it is largely reflected back to the work.  you can put a torch on one side of an IFB for 15 minutes and you wont feel it on the other side.

Three loose on the bench made into a corner is low cost, very effective place to solder.  One place to look for them are the suppliers to the pottery people, ceramic supply.  (there's a lot more of those around most towns than foundry supply places)

Just for kicks did a search, amazon.ca is $25/ brick (I think amazon must be an indian word for rip off) and a local ceramic store is $4.85, both in dollarettes

https://www.amazon.ca/Amaco-28035N-Insulating-Firebrick-Size/dp/B007VEOIVA/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=insulated+fire+bricks&qid=1578665745&sr=8-7

https://www.theceramicshop.com/product/1201/soft-brick-ifb-2300-25/




Offline Alex

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2020, 03:18:25 PM »
Hi CMitcham;

I've built a couple of locomotives; one coming close to finishing. I did the original Shay, and might do the Heisler once my current build is finished.

CRueby certainly does good work, and I've also come to appreciate the smaller machine tools after seeing the fantastic series that Chris does.

I'd agree with the propane - I also have a Sievert torch with a couple of burners.

Keep going, focusing on making one part at a time, and before you know it, things will bolt together. Right now, I'm making "tender steps", and I'll betcha that they'll fit the tender of my current locomotive build, but I'm not focusing on how many parts are still to be made.

Attached is a pic of my original Shay - JohnS.




Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2020, 03:23:13 PM »
For this engine you definitely want the silver solder, sometimes known as silver braze. Be wary of the hardware store stuff that says 'silver bearing solder' - that is usually soft solder that has a tiny bit of silver in it. Soft solder will not hold up well at all for these parts. The firebrick will definitely help reflect in the heat.  Once you get to the boiler parts you will defintely need a large-tank propane-fired torch, the smaller mapp gas tanks and nozzles will have no chance of heating up a copper boiler that big. Also, make use of the different grades of silver solder. The 'Easy' grade has the lowest melting point, the 'Hard' is the highest, and the 'Medium' is naturally in the middle. Comes in handy when having to solder on parts to an existing assembly that is not held together with screws - do the first parts with the higher temperature and the follow on parts with the lower temperature version. I like to use the thin wire solder that the jewelry suppliers carry rather than the thicker welding rod sizes, can lay short lengths in the corners in flux and let it melt in as the metal comes up to temperature, and use a pick to help spread if needed. Thats a personal preference, many ways to skin this cat.

Offline tghs

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2020, 03:49:13 PM »
https://www.riogrande.com/product/bronze-wire-solder-20-ga/132203  they have several products of this type,, the thin size works very nice and helps prevent to much solder on the work piece, depending on the color match, it makes to joints very hard to see. a ceramic soldering base helps keep your heat from being drawn away.. for most silver soldering I use mapp gas..
what the @#&% over

Offline Mcgyver

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2020, 06:30:02 PM »

Attached is a pic of my original Shay - JohnS.

you did a beautiful job on that Shay!

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2020, 07:04:35 PM »
https://www.riogrande.com/product/bronze-wire-solder-20-ga/132203  they have several products of this type,, the thin size works very nice and helps prevent to much solder on the work piece, depending on the color match, it makes to joints very hard to see. a ceramic soldering base helps keep your heat from being drawn away.. for most silver soldering I use mapp gas..
I picked up some of the 'bronze' silver solder a while back, never remember to try it. Does it behave pretty much like the normal silver solder does? The melt temperatures look like it should be equivalent to the 'Hard' silver solder.

Offline tghs

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2020, 07:19:16 PM »
just like normal hard silver solder,, being in a fine wire helps with control.. another great item  https://www.riogrande.com/product/knew-concepts-titanium-soldering-strip-set/110795
what the @#&% over

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2020, 07:49:39 PM »
just like normal hard silver solder,, being in a fine wire helps with control.. another great item  https://www.riogrande.com/product/knew-concepts-titanium-soldering-strip-set/110795
Interesting for clamping - I went to the KnewConcepts website, they have some great videos about these clamping strips. Look quite useful for small odd shaped parts. Have you tried them yourself?

Offline tghs

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2020, 08:06:55 PM »
have found them to work great,, they will glow bright yellow but keep clamping,, things that may have taken 2 or more soldering operation could be done in one,, the rudder shoe/skeg prop shaft guide all in one part is 5 large pieces,, 6 clamps and two mapp torches
what the @#&% over

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2020, 08:29:37 PM »
Nice!  I'll have to pick up a set. Thanks for the tip!

Offline Domagoj

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2020, 09:57:33 PM »
Those things look very useful, and we all know you can not have too many clamps.
Do you form the shape of the titanium strips while hot or cold? How many times can you change the shape before the strip breaks?

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2020, 10:05:19 PM »
The videos on the manufacturer website shows forming while cold with pliers, can also file and saw the tips. They don't say, but sounds like straightening and rebending is not possible, so they come in packs of ten. They do say they come annealed, and you can not reanneal them. The heat of silver soldering does not make them lose springyness, so a clamp can be used many times once formed.

Offline cnr6400

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2020, 12:11:31 AM »
Titanium fingers are commonly used in the conveyors each side of wave soldering machines for printed circuit boards (PCB's). They extend downward on each side and grip the PCB's. They are mounted to a chain conveyor at the top which moves the PCB along toward the molten solder fountain/ wave (not suitable for elf wave boarding or surfing, just FYI) and into the cooling area. In use, the ends of the fingers are immersed for a minute or two in the molten solder every time the conveyor goes around. The fingers don't lose tension or oxidise fast like other metals would. Eventually they do wear out and get tossed though.

You may be able to find Ti strips in the form of these fingers, to make similar strips to the Knew Concepts product, at wave solder machine service places or parts distributors. Oddly there are several such suppliers local to me. (I'm only aware of them from doing some custom tooling design work on such machines in the day job years ago). Anyway only reason I mention this is that I think from such a supplier the Ti strips may be far less expensive and will work just as well. If your timing is good for a visit to such a supplier you might be able to liberate a few fingers from the scrap box for not much money. Just FYI, food for thought.

Offline tghs

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2020, 12:29:58 AM »
I have rebent them several times,, but normally just grab one that has been shaped to meet the job needing to be done..
what the @#&% over

Offline cmitcham

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2020, 06:25:04 AM »
while i wait for better weather for soldering the case, i started on the steam chests. and the questions for chris start... page 16, post 303.

when you chuck in the 4 jaw the second time, you say "Turned the block around, and drilled/tapped a hole in the other end for the oil pipe inlet fitting". the picture certainly looks like you have drilled and tapped a hole. but several pictures later, it has become a boss with external threads, per kozo's print.

what am i missing here???


Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2020, 03:21:58 PM »
while i wait for better weather for soldering the case, i started on the steam chests. and the questions for chris start... page 16, post 303.

when you chuck in the 4 jaw the second time, you say "Turned the block around, and drilled/tapped a hole in the other end for the oil pipe inlet fitting". the picture certainly looks like you have drilled and tapped a hole. but several pictures later, it has become a boss with external threads, per kozo's print.

what am i missing here???
Went back and took a look (been a few years since that build! ). Then looked at the model close up, and I can tell that the threaded boss is a separate piece - drilled through and threaded the outside of a piece of round bar, then screwed that into the steam chest in the hole that I had drilled/tapped. The threads on the outside disappear into the side of the steam chest, so it had to have been a separate piece, a die would have stopped just shy of the face. In his book it looks like Kozo made those threaded bosses part of the chest piece, I made them separate. Dont remember why, it was probably either so the threads would go in farther, or I goofed and didn't leave material for them!

Can you post some pictures of your progress so far? Love to see them!

Offline cmitcham

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2020, 07:05:38 PM »
many ways... my stock includes the boss length, so i'll go that route.

my progress pretty well summed up by my new year's eve pictures. note there is no picture for 2019. but cable tv is gone now, so biggest impediment is history :)

i started before i found your build, and i wasn't sure the sherlines were capable. another forum suggested i might just build the engine, and that sounded good to me. with zero machining experience, i saw the u-joiint pieces looked easy enough so started there. then of course i decided to jump to the most difficult piece...


Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2020, 08:35:20 PM »
Those parts look great! Quite good for starting with no machining experience, it took me a bunch of engine kits and scratch built ones to work up the nerve to start his Shay, looks like you are picking it up very well. That crankshaft is not a simple thing by any means. The engine alone should be a fun project, and you will have something running to inspire the rest of the build.   :cheers: :cheers:

Offline cmitcham

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2020, 06:37:46 PM »
i have done the lathe work on my first steam chest and cut o-ring dimensions per kozo's dimensions. his o-ring appendix shows the o-ring dimensions he is after. 1.9mm cross section diameter, 1.8mm inner diameter, and 5.6mm outer diameter.

i can't find a viton o-ring with these dimensions with my google searching. before I start the other 2 steam chests with these same dimensions, can anyone help with where I can find this o-ring?

thanks!!

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2020, 07:36:39 PM »
I have bought a variety off amazon, but the biggest selection I have found is The O Ring Store, lots of materials, sizes, types. I think the had the viton ones listed as flouro elastomer, FEK, something like that. The have lots of metric sizes. Best bet is to have the rings first, and cut to suit them.

Offline derekwarner

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2020, 08:57:47 PM »
A standard BS 2-004 o-ring is the actual size you need.......should be a readily stocked size World wide

1.78 ID with a [1.78+1.78] section :ThumbsUp: is very close to your nominated dimensions

People nominate o-ring dimensions and size cavities & commit these dimension sizes to Drawings without necessarily understanding International Manufacturing Standards and sizes, the requirements [or worse, :Doh:  the consequences]

If you needed to choose any additional o-ring from your Table as published, you would find the listed sizes from P3 to P7 are not in accordance with the Japanese Standard JIS B2406

Viton is also known by the chemical compound names of FPM, FKM, Fluoroelastomer and Flurocarbon

Derek
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 02:52:04 AM by derekwarner »
Derek Warner - Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op - Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline cmitcham

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2020, 03:50:14 AM »
thanks guys!!!