Author Topic: solder kozo new shay crankcase  (Read 1575 times)

Offline cmitcham

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solder kozo new shay crankcase
« on: January 09, 2020, 02:59:16 AM »
the crankcase is ready for cleaning/soldering. kozo says "two or more heating/acid-cleaning steps will be required"

does this mean i should only flux up / screw in place 2 of the bulkheads to for a first session, then acid clean again and flux up the remaining 2? i do have the higher temp black flux.

thanks for all advice!

edit - and oh yea, is this nozzle and mapp gas going to be enough "umph"?

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2020, 03:55:07 AM »
When I built Kozos new shay I got part way into the build and had to upgrade from the mapp gas to a sievert propane rig, run off grill tank propane tank. That case may be at the limit of what the mapp torch will do, I think it will work. It definitely won't be able to make it for the boiler, just too much mass. I assembled the whole case and soldered it together, keeps things aligned the best. You may need a couple sessions to get solder in all the joints, since it wont flow uphill, best to angle it to put solder in the lower corners, clean it and roll over to do the other angles. I don't remember the details of how many sessions I did.
I have a build thread here


https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/building-kozos-new-shay-locomotive.23204/page-17

It was my first big build, and learned a ton from that book, he teaches a lot!

Offline Kim

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2020, 05:17:17 AM »
the crankcase is ready for cleaning/soldering. kozo says "two or more heating/acid-cleaning steps will be required"

does this mean i should only flux up / screw in place 2 of the bulkheads to for a first session, then acid clean again and flux up the remaining 2? i do have the higher temp black flux.

thanks for all advice!

edit - and oh yea, is this nozzle and mapp gas going to be enough "umph"?

Yes, if he says multiple steps, it means just what you describe - clean, flux and prepare one or two of the joints, solder them, then pickle and clean the parts.  Now, setup another joint or two and do them.  It takes a while, but trying to do too many joints at one time can be problematic because all the flux will boil off on the later joints and they start getting that sooty build up that makes it so the solder won't bond.  So aiming for fewer joints in more sessions really does work - as long as you clean well between soldering sessions!

And as Chris said, if you're going to do two joints in the same heating session, then make sure they both are working in the same direction - that the solder is flowing the same way, preferably with gravity to assist.

Kim

Offline Kim

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2020, 05:23:34 AM »
And as much as possible, heat from the opposite side that you're applying the solder (preferably the bottom).  And apply the most heat to the biggest part!

And in my case - since I use Oxy-Acetylene, I have to be very careful NOT to leave the heat in the same place for too long.  I've found that using the upper part of the flame (where its orange, and not blue/white) gives a gentler, more general heat.  But it will still melt brass pretty quickly if I leave it in one place.  You're using MAPP, so you likely won't have that problem.  You're problem will be getting enough heat to get the joint up to temp quick enough before all the flux boils away.  If the flux starts to boil off I've found you can add some flux - just don't put the flux brush in the flame or it torches up and makes a worse mess.   But you can put some flux on the hot joint and it can help to clean up the scorched stuff that was there.  Not ideal, but I've done it many times if the flux has all boiled away.

Also, make sure you have that pointy hook thing that Kozo describes - that's very useful for adding a dab of flux here and there (better than a brush) and for helping the solder know which why you want it to flow if it gets confused :)

Kim

Offline cmitcham

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2020, 02:04:06 AM »
thanks guys, i was hoping to hear from you two. as soon as it warms up a little, i'll attempt the solder :)

chris, the greatest day of my fledgling hobby machinist career was the day i found your shay build thread. since then, my mill or lathe nevers powers on until i have studied both the kozo and the crueby manual. as great as the kozo instructions are, since i have almost identical machines as yours, seeing what you did is often even better than kozo!

hopefully much more to come soon. after a completely dismal performance in 2019, i'm calling 2020 the year of the shay. so far, so good.

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2020, 02:17:41 AM »
Awesome to hear it was so useful! That build was really the turning point in my machining hobby, before that one I had done  just small engines and kits. I learned a lot of new skills from Kozo. Without it I would never have attempted the Lombard and Marion projects. Please keep us posted on the progress of your build!


Chris

Offline Mcgyver

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2020, 02:23:15 PM »
edit - and oh yea, is this nozzle and mapp gas going to be enough "umph"?

Is this soft solder or silver solder?  I've used propane and air for ages for SS, the temperature is plenty high enough, but with those bricks you many not get enough heat.

Those bricks look like the heavy, durable type you'd use with fireplace masonry work.  You'd find a big difference with insulated fire bricks.  IFB's are super light, i.e. you cut through them with a hacksaw in a minute.  The difference is dramatic; the heavy FB's substantially increase the amout of heat you have to apply, whereas the IFB's don't absorb the heat- it is largely reflected back to the work.  you can put a torch on one side of an IFB for 15 minutes and you wont feel it on the other side.

Three loose on the bench made into a corner is low cost, very effective place to solder.  One place to look for them are the suppliers to the pottery people, ceramic supply.  (there's a lot more of those around most towns than foundry supply places)

Just for kicks did a search, amazon.ca is $25/ brick (I think amazon must be an indian word for rip off) and a local ceramic store is $4.85, both in dollarettes

https://www.amazon.ca/Amaco-28035N-Insulating-Firebrick-Size/dp/B007VEOIVA/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=insulated+fire+bricks&qid=1578665745&sr=8-7

https://www.theceramicshop.com/product/1201/soft-brick-ifb-2300-25/




Offline Alex

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2020, 03:18:25 PM »
Hi CMitcham;

I've built a couple of locomotives; one coming close to finishing. I did the original Shay, and might do the Heisler once my current build is finished.

CRueby certainly does good work, and I've also come to appreciate the smaller machine tools after seeing the fantastic series that Chris does.

I'd agree with the propane - I also have a Sievert torch with a couple of burners.

Keep going, focusing on making one part at a time, and before you know it, things will bolt together. Right now, I'm making "tender steps", and I'll betcha that they'll fit the tender of my current locomotive build, but I'm not focusing on how many parts are still to be made.

Attached is a pic of my original Shay - JohnS.




Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2020, 03:23:13 PM »
For this engine you definitely want the silver solder, sometimes known as silver braze. Be wary of the hardware store stuff that says 'silver bearing solder' - that is usually soft solder that has a tiny bit of silver in it. Soft solder will not hold up well at all for these parts. The firebrick will definitely help reflect in the heat.  Once you get to the boiler parts you will defintely need a large-tank propane-fired torch, the smaller mapp gas tanks and nozzles will have no chance of heating up a copper boiler that big. Also, make use of the different grades of silver solder. The 'Easy' grade has the lowest melting point, the 'Hard' is the highest, and the 'Medium' is naturally in the middle. Comes in handy when having to solder on parts to an existing assembly that is not held together with screws - do the first parts with the higher temperature and the follow on parts with the lower temperature version. I like to use the thin wire solder that the jewelry suppliers carry rather than the thicker welding rod sizes, can lay short lengths in the corners in flux and let it melt in as the metal comes up to temperature, and use a pick to help spread if needed. Thats a personal preference, many ways to skin this cat.

Offline tghs

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2020, 03:49:13 PM »
https://www.riogrande.com/product/bronze-wire-solder-20-ga/132203  they have several products of this type,, the thin size works very nice and helps prevent to much solder on the work piece, depending on the color match, it makes to joints very hard to see. a ceramic soldering base helps keep your heat from being drawn away.. for most silver soldering I use mapp gas..
what the @#&% over

Offline Mcgyver

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2020, 06:30:02 PM »

Attached is a pic of my original Shay - JohnS.

you did a beautiful job on that Shay!

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2020, 07:04:35 PM »
https://www.riogrande.com/product/bronze-wire-solder-20-ga/132203  they have several products of this type,, the thin size works very nice and helps prevent to much solder on the work piece, depending on the color match, it makes to joints very hard to see. a ceramic soldering base helps keep your heat from being drawn away.. for most silver soldering I use mapp gas..
I picked up some of the 'bronze' silver solder a while back, never remember to try it. Does it behave pretty much like the normal silver solder does? The melt temperatures look like it should be equivalent to the 'Hard' silver solder.

Offline tghs

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2020, 07:19:16 PM »
just like normal hard silver solder,, being in a fine wire helps with control.. another great item  https://www.riogrande.com/product/knew-concepts-titanium-soldering-strip-set/110795
what the @#&% over

Offline crueby

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2020, 07:49:39 PM »
just like normal hard silver solder,, being in a fine wire helps with control.. another great item  https://www.riogrande.com/product/knew-concepts-titanium-soldering-strip-set/110795
Interesting for clamping - I went to the KnewConcepts website, they have some great videos about these clamping strips. Look quite useful for small odd shaped parts. Have you tried them yourself?

Offline tghs

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Re: solder kozo new shay crankcase
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2020, 08:06:55 PM »
have found them to work great,, they will glow bright yellow but keep clamping,, things that may have taken 2 or more soldering operation could be done in one,, the rudder shoe/skeg prop shaft guide all in one part is 5 large pieces,, 6 clamps and two mapp torches
what the @#&% over