Author Topic: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine  (Read 2335 times)

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« on: October 22, 2019, 02:26:29 PM »
Back in the last Millennium or even earlier (early 1980's  ;) ) I can recall my friend Adam Harris who runs Camden Miniature Steam Services showing me a very expensive set of castings for a 3" Scale Rider-Ericsson Hot-Air Pumping Engine. While being very desirable I  was not allowed   to buy expensive castings by my EX-husband  :cussing: ).

Roll on 30 or so years and my young Apprentice was caught buying a set of said castings on Flea-bay  :) There had been a bit of a concern about the arrival of said castings as the seller thought he could post them using parcel-farce for £2.80 Thankfully the fact that it probably cost ten times that did not stop them arriving today or Surus pouncing on the delivery driver  :facepalm2:

I have been allowed to unpack them for him and we have a set of Adam's Rider Ericsson castings  :pinkelephant: Ok so we are missing the bronze bits and the cylinder liner but hey these casting sets are now over £750 or were when Adam sold them last so it looks like we might have a good buy   

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2019, 02:37:16 PM »
Lets start with a bit of history:

John Ericsson patented his Hot Air Pumping Engine in 1890, the year such engines were first commercially produced. They were very successful for general pumping duties where their low power was not a drawback and the fact they had no boiler and could run on virtually anything was a positive advantage. The prototype of this model is an eight inch engine, the size refers to the bore, and in full size it could pump around 500 gallons an hour.

Adam Harris is not the designer of this model engine, he runs a very good book supply company (yes I know the name Camden Miniature Steam Services does not sound very book like  ::) ) and the drawings and a build article for this engine are in the American book "Steam and Stirling - engines you can build".

I know that Myers in USA does an excellent set of castings for a 1/4 scale Rider-Ericsson but these are not them  :hellno: No these are Adam's own and the one major omission in the UK set of castings is the lack of a casting for the firebox

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline b.lindsey

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13744
  • Dallas, NC, USA
    • Workbench-Miniatures
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2019, 02:44:23 PM »
Looks like a nice set of castings Jo. One comment which applies to the Myers set as well...replace the tubing for the displacer piston and cylinder liner with stainless tubing unless you want to run antifreeze as a coolant in the case of the cylinder liner. The displacer piston can be subject to condensation as well and therefore some rust if not done with stainless (or perhaps aluminum).

Bill

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2019, 04:27:22 PM »
 :thinking: I was thinking of making the cylinder liner out of cast Iron bill. I am not sure were I might get a piece of Stainless tube that sort of size.

What I thought was the Displacer cylinder is not it is too large a diameter so I will need to find something else for that as well. The drawings suggest a piece of copper tube but that is unlikely to be easy to find. I did find a piece of welded steal tube that could possibly be turned down to make that out of.

The displacer piston it came with looks like it has been used before  :headscratch:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2019, 04:32:42 PM »
Bit of my Scooby exhaust should do the trick.  ;)

If you grind down the seam on the inside you can buy a whole range of stainless exhaust pipe in short lengths. What is the diameter you need?

Offline b.lindsey

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13744
  • Dallas, NC, USA
    • Workbench-Miniatures
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2019, 04:33:21 PM »
I was just saying that any part that comes in contact with water like the cylinder liner, or condensation like the displacer piston will rust over time. Steel or cast iron will work of course but you would need to mix antifreeze in the water or you will be pumping dirty brown water.

Bill

Offline Alyn Foundry

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 867
  • North Wales, Great Britain.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2019, 05:41:49 PM »
Hi Jo.

Your reference to commercial production of the hot air engine, was the date of 1890 for Ericsson?

AE and H Robinson were making hot air engines commercially from 1881.

The Alyn foundry Robinson patterns and production rights were bought from a gentleman named Andy Spooner, who also sold me the rights to a side by side water cooled Hienrici. His " trick " was to use scrap automotive shock absorbers for the cylinders and when emptied of oil the body makes a nice displacer piston too.

Cheers Graham.

Offline Chipmaster

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 620
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2019, 05:55:36 PM »
I agree with Bill and Jason. I used a cast iron cylinder liner in my Rider Ericsson and could see corrosion was going to be a problem, as soon as I ran it the water turned murky brown so I used ForLife engine coolant. Fortunately a friend gave me a gallon years ago, it costs about £30 for 5 litres now.
As Jason said you should be able to obtain stainless steel tube from car exhaust fabricators for the displacer and its cylinder.

Andy

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2019, 06:23:34 PM »
Just looked at what stainless tube I have on the shelf and the seam is almost non existent, I was thinking of my ERW stocks which have more of a seam.

As a bonus it comes with those numbers on it that you can understand

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2019, 06:27:01 PM »
Thanks guys,

The date was a direct quote from both the article and Adam's sales literature Graham.


I'm going to have to look into options for the liner and the displacer cylinder when I am next allowed to see these castings.  Someone is currently installing them in his casting store with the promise that I will see them again on Thursday evening  :wine1:

I had noted that I can get 250mm long stainless tube locally for about £10 a bit, I wasn't sure if it was seamless. I don't want seamed tube for a cylinder liner  :hellno: but it will work for the hot end.

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
  • Søften - Denmark
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2019, 09:49:06 PM »
Nice castings Jo - I'm guessing that both you and Surus will have a lot of happy hours (at different times) from them  :cheers:

Quote
I don't want seamed tube for a cylinder liner  :hellno:

As the only thing I remember doing to with a seamed tube, is cutting them with a saw / cutter, for length and turning a thread on each end - I guessing here .... The seam has a different hardness and this is a pain in the proverbial when trying to be working on the thickness in a lathe (in- / out- side)  :thinking:

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2019, 08:48:33 AM »
Thanks Per,

Having a hard weld line down the side of the bore would leave a slight ridge which I cannot see even Honing taking out so best go with a seamless tube. I have about a metre of 60mm diameter Cast Iron so I am tending towards that unless I can find a piece of hydraulic tubing the right size.


A very nice man  :embarassed: sent me a set of paper patterns for the missing firebox. This box needs to be bent up and welded out of thin steel sheet. Having reviewed it I decide to modify the pattern slightly and add welding tabs.

I looked everywhere for a piece of 1.2mm steel to make a firebox out of but all I had was a piece of aged 1mm. The starting point required the removal of the brown protective coating. This the allowed me to spray it with spray mount and stick the pattern on it. I had been warned that cutting the pattern out would be difficult but as I had been using the Hagner successfully on the Triple cladding I decided to try using that. And other than breaking 6 blades  :Doh: we had success.

The corners need to be bent with a 16mm radi, to achieve this I used a piece of 28.6mm diameter steel and angle Iron clamped in the vice. This bent fairly well by hand except the ends which were a bit short so they had to be tapped over using a hammer.

So we have the outline of the firebox. Now I need to decide how to join it up: spot weld, rivet, arc weld, Tig Weld, or silver solder :noidea:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline b.lindsey

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13744
  • Dallas, NC, USA
    • Workbench-Miniatures
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2019, 02:23:17 PM »
Nice work on the firebox Jo. The myers plans also show a  fabricated firebox though they were apparently not updated once the cast firebox was added to the kit.

Bill

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2019, 02:38:22 PM »
I've bored out quite  a bit of ERW steel tube with a weld seam and not found it a problem when using carbide inserts, though that won't cure the rust issue.

Then again, hundreads of hit and miss engines about that are water cooled and run iron liners and cast iron water jackets. Just swill a bit of tank sealer or similar about inside if you are worried or pump mineral oil.

Offline Bluechip

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 814
  • Derbyshire
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2019, 03:04:41 PM »
T

I looked everywhere for a piece of 1.2mm steel to make a firebox out of but all I had was a piece of aged 1mm.


Jo

Hi Jo

That bit of steel sheet I was babbling about t'other night has been found ....  eventually ...   :facepalm:

It's approx. 460mm x 420mm x 0.8mm  .....  :shrug:

So it's now yours.   :ThumbsUp:

Unfortunately it's covered in blue paint and appears to be rust free.  So apologies for the amount of prep. it will need before use ...  :embarassed:

Dave

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2019, 03:15:27 PM »
Thanks Dave  :)

Still deciding how to join up the box. A quick practise with my new welder was vaporising the steel plate as was my old welder  :facepalm:

I think it is going to be rivet together then chalk with either silver or if cool enough soft solder.


I have been pointed at a supplier of the required Stainless steel tube. I'll let you know when I recover from the shock of the price  :lolb:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2019, 02:46:27 PM »
It looks like I have found a suitable bit of stainless tube for the displacer cylinder  :)

I have also been taking the firebox about as far as I want to go before putting on the band round the middle which is used to mount it onto the engine. The three side joins had three rivets each put in to hold things together. Then the box was silver soldered together. It was a high silver solder I used which doesn't run very much hence the lumps  :facepalm2:

The important thing is it is together without too many problems. And I even managed to keep the part of the paper template with the positioning of the fire hole and the arch at the bottom, thankfully I had centre popped the centre of the hole for the chimney before burning off the paper.

Its Thursday and it looks like I will be allowed to fondle the Rider-Ericsson castings this evening :wine1:  :pinkelephant:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline bent

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Wet side of Washington State, USA
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2019, 04:47:43 PM »
Looking forward to more pictures of those castings, Jo!

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2019, 06:26:36 PM »
We have to be patient Bent. Trying to rush someone has known the entire casting set to be hidden in the back of the cupboard for a few months and I am at a disadvantage if I try bribery as the grocery delivery driver only has one box of Snickers Icecream on board so I have to pace admitting to them  :wallbang:


The flywheel Bracket has an odd one: it uses a needle bearing without an inner to the race  :headscratch: To be able to do this it says you have to get a super hard dowel (which are too short  :facepalm: ) There is plenty of space in there for a real needle roller or even to use a bronze bush. I wonder what the original had  :noidea:

The only feature I have found so far is that the bore for the power cylinder is short. I assume by the amount that was turned off the top. I'll need to check the consequences of this  :thinking: It might not be as simple as shortening the liner.

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2019, 06:32:36 PM »
I thought it was quite common to run needle rollers on a hardened shaft with just the drawn cup on the outside.

It is possible to buy hardened inner rings that you could loctite onto a shaft

You can get 1/2" dowels upto 4" long

Also saw some 2 1/4" x 10g seamless steel tube on e-bay if you want that for the liner
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 06:39:59 PM by Jasonb »

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2019, 06:44:25 PM »
I was going to use silver steel so could just harden it  :noidea:

Also saw some 2 1/4" x 10g seamless steel tube on e-bay if you want that for the liner

So lets have the link  :stickpoke:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2019, 06:47:58 PM »
Dowel pins, Zoro is part of Comwell, or you could just use a bit of 1/2" HSS

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kennedy-1-2x3-Inch-Plain-Dowel-Pin/132456053728?hash=item1ed6fefbe0:g:YCgAAOSwmcNdWsmm

Tube, do short lengths. Probably as close as you will easily get to 2" bore

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STEEL-TUBE-COLD-DRAWN-SEAMLESS-2-1-4-OD-X-10SWG-57-15MM-X-3-05MM-EN10305-1/223154073434

Though you will have to open your purse :Lol:

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2019, 06:51:59 PM »
or 3 1/2" long pins so you can cut off the tapered end

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kennedy-1-2x3-1-2-Inch-Plain-Dowel-Pin/142644328260

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2019, 06:56:13 PM »
My usual supplier who knows a thing or two about bearings just happens to do 11/16 OD x 1/2 ID and even suggests running them direct on a hardened shaft.

https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Bearings/Needle-Roller-Bearings

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2019, 08:51:23 PM »
I can see that you find it easy to spending the pennies JB.  ::) My other supplier may be able to supply a bit of tube for me   :naughty:

Jo

P.S. You don't need a hardened shaft if you are using cheap Chinese sourced bearings  ;)
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2019, 07:02:25 AM »
So you will just be running them straight against the rust then :wallbang:

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2019, 07:53:20 AM »
Heat treatment of most metals causes an oxide layer to form on the surface of the metal which most of us clean off  ::)

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2019, 07:59:13 AM »
Or better still use a ground dowel pin as cleaning off that oxide from a bit of something you harden will reduce the diameter & quenching will possibly distort the rod and then you will be moaning that you have another wobbly flywheel either from a loose fit of the bearings or bent shaft :facepalm:

Offline ketan swali

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 23
  • Leicester, United Kingdom
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2019, 12:57:04 PM »
Hi Jo,

Looking at your drawing, it suggests 2 x B88 - Torrington. The original B88 is a drawn cup needle roller bearing, with a full complement of needle rollers. ARC used to get them way back from Torrington when it was part of IR, then kept on being passed to current ownership by KOYO. Originally, when they were not available as a caged bearing. Later they were, and what ARC currently offers, is BA88 which is a caged version of B88, in IKO Japan brand:
https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Bearings/Needle-Roller-Bearings/Needle-Roller-Bearings-Imperial
The image you see on that page is a good representation of what we have currently in stock for BA88.

Some fitting notes:

- Drawn Cup NRBs get their support from their housing. As they come, if you put the bearing on a 1/2" shaft, it will rattle. You will need to measure the OD of the bearing, and make the hole in the casting about a thou to a thou and a half smaller. For hard casting material, usually a thou smaller, for soft casting material, more.. but there is no exact measure. Once you press fit the bearing into the housing, the needles will compress (for want of word) onto the 1/2" shaft, and hopefully, if you have done it right, the bearing will not rattle on the shaft. This is a common mistake made by fitters, be they new or experienced, when specifically fitting drawn cup NRBs.... commonly the cause of slippage on DCNR Clutch bearings like RC02 fitted to lubricator boxes?.

- Ideally, make a mounting mandrel to press fit the bearing in. See attachment for general guidance.
- When press-fitting, press on the drawn cup on the side which has the bearing details stated on it. This side/edge of the drawn cup is hardened.
- For the shaft, ideally you need something hard for the needle rollers to run on. dowel pins are fine. You may also get away with silver steel to some extent (I think Nevel Evens used this often). Alternatively, you may be able to find a hardened inner ring with an OD of 1/2".

In the late 1980s, Mr. Torrington had made many legal challenges on Chinese factories.  Slowly after the year 2000, the current group which owns Torrington, have plenty of JVs with Chinese factories. :-)

Good Luck Jo.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 01:02:00 PM by ketan swali »
Ketan at ARC.

Offline ketan swali

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 23
  • Leicester, United Kingdom
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2019, 01:06:13 PM »
Ketan at ARC.

Offline ketan swali

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 23
  • Leicester, United Kingdom
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2019, 03:38:49 PM »
The boys on the Stirling Hot Air Engine stand always liked to use ball raced bearings, without any seals, or shields, removing almost all of the lubrication, to reduce as much of the friction as possible, in their assembly.

So, just out of curiosity Jo, is there a possibility you could consider similar?... example 4 x SR1212ZZ after removing the metal shields?
https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Bearings/Ball-Bearings-Imperial/12-Bore
in which case, the OD bore in casting would need to be 'slightly' bigger, or

Metric 4 x 6701-2RS after removing the rubber seals?
https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Bearings/Ball-Bearings-Metric/12mm-Bore
in which case, 12mm shaft to be considered, and the OD bore in casting would need to be 'slightly' bigger.

Keep in mind, the original full complement of rollers in B88 would have created the most amount of friction. The above method would mean that you could use whatever unhardened material you want for the 1/2"/12mm shaft, and have lower friction.
Ketan at ARC.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2019, 03:46:54 PM »
Interesting info Ketan, I wonder if just two would do? From previous experience your balls are quite smooth. ;)

t=7s

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2019, 05:53:36 PM »
Thanks for your input Ketan,

A friend has found some English  8) made needle bearings and I have ordered a 101.6mm  :lolb: dowel so I will give those a go  :ThumbsUp:

Jo

« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 02:19:43 PM by Jo »
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline ketan swali

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 23
  • Leicester, United Kingdom
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2019, 07:39:22 PM »
Jason,

Looking at your you tube video, it would suggest that two may do fine. The ball raced bearings I mentioned are thin/slim sectioned, so I suggested four after looking at the original B/BA88 widths which are double the width of the slim ball bearings I suggested.

Jo,

Glad you got it sorted. The English made (presumed to be made in England) are they B/BA88s?.... if so, would you mind having a look on the bearings to identify who the maker is please?. Just interested to know for my own knowledge. If it is marked RHP... then it was probably made by FLT in Poland or just near the end of the war in England for a limited period. If it is marked INA, they are based in Sutton Coldfield but didn't make these in the U.K.. They were made by their plant in Kindsbach (not sure of spelling) - Germany, which changed hands between FAG, INA and Torrington.... and then there were fakes or copies made in Italy, Russia and China, marked ENGLAND or Germany... but still good and some bad. Torrington only made these in the U.S. and Germany. So I am a little puzzled about the English made for this particular bearing.
Ketan at ARC.

Offline Chipmaster

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 620
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2019, 10:12:25 PM »
Hi Jo,
For the power cylinder you could consider a Westwood cylinder liner, have a look at WCL !A on their list with a semi finished bore of 50.17mm (Less 1.00mm for final finishing in bore) and it's 177.8mm  ~ 7" long. As you know I used a Westwood liner for my Rider Ericsson.

https://westwoodcylinderliners.co.uk/products/browse-by-size/

I don’t know what they cost but cast iron is so much easier to machine, hone and lap.

Andy

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2019, 08:32:09 AM »
Thanks Andy, I've sent them an enquiry. The alternative is that one of the model traction engine companies has seamless steel tube available which you only pay pro-rata on length and no cutting fee :)

Ketan I will find out the manufacturer when I pick them up. I suspect they are ex-fast jet production line as funded on cost plus by the tax payer so unlikely to be a cheap make  ::)

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline ketan swali

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 23
  • Leicester, United Kingdom
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2019, 12:13:34 PM »
Thanks Jo
Ketan at ARC.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2019, 02:16:31 PM »
That dowel turned up (with four extras I didn't order  :headscratch:) and it is 12.7mm diameter and 4 1/2" long   :Doh: Mr Silky had a look at it for me and turned it down to the required initial length of 101.6mm using a Sumitomo tipped carbide tool. When it comes to assembly I might get him to reduce it further.

I can report that the case hardening is good and is about 1mm thick  :ThumbsUp: and the sparks did fly when machining through it. The centre is a little softer. 

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2019, 06:13:24 PM »
Latest on the liner: No response from Westwood  :disappointed: But a very lovely man has picked up a suitable bit of seamless steel tubing that can be machined and I have borrowed a Delapena hone of the right size so Smelly can hone it for me  :ThumbsUp:

In the meantime I have continued on assembling Numero Uno of the Triples  :toilet_claw: So exciting.

To break the monotony I decided to bore the flywheel bracket for the needle rollers that I picked up. These are Koyo bearings made in USA  :headscratch: The book of words suggests mounting the bracket on a faceplate and boring to fit the bearings  :headscratch: Ok I'm game. With a 6.7mm spacer under the centre boss everything mounted nicely and both sides of the centre boss ran true  :) Because of the accuracy required for fitting the bearings properly I made a go/no go gauge marked up with too small, too big and the measurements that are acceptable and used this to aid the boring.

I'll have to have a think about how to hold the bracket to machine the other side. My reference surfaces are the bore and the machined face  :noidea:

Jo

Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2019, 06:23:10 PM »
These are Koyo bearings made in USA  :headscratch:

Why head scratching, I thought Ketan explained it.

Torrington used factories in Germany and US to make these type of bearings, Koyo bought out Torrington and still use the same factories.

Not English as you said.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2019, 06:30:34 PM »
He said nothing about Koyo buying anyone out :ShakeHead:

Not English as you said.

You didn't expect my supplier to admit to any makes other than English, German or Swiss did you?  :lolb:


I am still short of a bit of 19mm square to make the water pump out of: My supplier weighed his in  :wallbang:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline scalemodel

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 36
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2019, 10:42:40 AM »
Hi jo
Im abit late coming to the table but I'm so glad you have started this engine as ive got one on the bench part built which I want to finish off.
I started my engine 15 years ago when after building some stuart engines wanted something with a fire in it. Unfortunately my mind turned to model traction engines and the the rider got put in the cupboard, 15 years on 2 traction engines down I'm now worn out and skint, my mind has turned back to models I can pick ie model hit and miss engines and want to get my rider finished

Jonathan

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2019, 01:18:54 PM »
Welcome Jonathan, I will have to see if I can build your enthusiasm to build your model  :) Did you know it is possibly the last ever Southern Counties Traction Engine Group meeting at the end of the month  :( You are welcome to come along it is held just south of Newbury.


I have been avoiding fitting the Triples making some more swarf and clamped the bracket to a plate to machine the bosses to height and to skim off the bottom of the feet/bracket.

The other side of the feet seem to need about 5mm taken off so before I do that I am checking the alignment  :thinking: The centre of the cylinder seems to be 11.3mm over from the flywheel boss and 5.65mm ish over from the side of the bracket that clamps on the side. Time to go and measure again.

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2019, 02:52:37 PM »
Still thinking about it...

I have taken 2.4mm off of the back of the top bracket to bring it level with the back of the flat face on the cylinder. Then I decided to press in the bearings. Only to find that all the needles had jammed solid and where sitting at a slight angle after  :paranoia:

Having poked the shaft in and jiggled it about a bit I would swear the bearings were not moving they must be solid  :headscratch: All the dimensions were correct. I checked again 30 seconds later and they were all free and sitting square and supporting the shaft beautifully  :noidea:

While I am thinking about where to put the holes in the bracket I spotted that the raised bit on the casting around the bottom of the cylinder is all over the place  :disappointed: that will have to be sorted and I need to decide studs or bolts around the bottom of the cylinder :thinking: Lets have a measure up on the platform.

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2019, 04:22:20 PM »
While I am still not firing on all cylinders I found that that wobbly bit around the base of the cylinder was annoying me so the platform was mounted up in a vice and zeroed up on the hole for the cylinder. Using a 6mm ball end milling bit mounted in my boring head with Tgs head running in reverse that nasty wobbly edge was machined off. A small diameter abrasive drum on my Foredom was used to blend the new machined surface into the main platform surface  :)

I also drilled and tapped the three mounting holes for the platform to let it mount on the legs. I need to work out were the other mounting hole goes  :thinking: and I will need some studs  ::)

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2019, 06:14:05 PM »
I am pleased to say I have done the studs for the bottom of the cylinder and the three for the legs but still need to think more about something for the fourth mounting.

this set of castings did not come with the Bronze links so I have been raiding the come-in-handy shelf and found some bits of brass to make the links out of. The starting point for these is to drill and ream the holes. I often recall when I started making model engines that starting with the holes seemed strange but it all comes together in the end  :wine1:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2019, 03:45:46 PM »
A piece of scrap aluminium was drilled and tapped for the centres of all  the rod ends and a set of clamping/filing buttons made. These buttons are 12.7mm OD, with a 6.35mm boss that goes into the hole in the rod, the hole for the bolt is smaller in this case for a 2BA allen screw.

While there is plenty of flat surfaces to clamp on to, it is time to mill the slot in the forked end and taking the other end to width but leaving most of the metal still on the top and bottom for shaping later

The two sides can then be evenly taken down by clamping the rod onto the aluminium jig while it is mounted horizontally. Flipping the Aluminium vertically allows the top and bottom to be brought down before unscrewing it from the jig and using the buttons to help with rounding the ends. Having cleaned out the holes with a reamer again a quick check on the engine to see what it looks like  :)

Hopefully the remainder will be just as trouble free.  :wine1:

Jo

Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Online mike mott

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 391
  • Alberta Canada
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2019, 04:04:43 PM »
Good afternoon Jo, I noticed in the last picture the hex stock bolts, are you making your own bolts and if so who is the supplier of the small size hex stock that you are using. in my neck of the woods we have a metal supermarket and they only stock .250 across the flats I would like to find a decent supplier of small steel hex without breaking my limited funds (retirement income is very low) I like the way you machine up the brass rod as well.

Mike
If you can imagine it you can build it

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2019, 04:17:04 PM »
Thanks Mike,

Yes I am making my own bolts. Those are not small however they have 8.5mm A/F heads and I am using some of my extensive collection of bits of hex bar that came out of the old technical collage when it closed. Normally I machine my fastners out of round 303 Stainless bar and cut the hex myself but this is such a large engine that I can use some of the big stock material.

I am not sure where you would buy any small hex in Canada, maybe one of the other members would know. In the UK we struggle to find the old imperialous or BA sizes any more but metric sizes are easy to find.

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Online mike mott

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 391
  • Alberta Canada
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2019, 05:07:31 PM »
Thanks Jo.

Mike
If you can imagine it you can build it

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2019, 04:35:10 PM »
I have finished roughing out the links, just a bit of polishing to go  ::)

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2019, 05:02:59 PM »
Looking good though a nice blast with beads in your cabinet could look better than bling and polish.

Were the ones on the original engines brass/bronze or just iron castings?

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2019, 05:21:57 PM »
They look to be polished cast bronze:


Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2019, 05:30:59 PM »
Yes looks like Bronze, wonder if the factory just painted the lot and it's just the restored ones that get buffed up?

You going to make one of those nice wooden tubs too :LittleDevil:
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 05:41:23 PM by Jasonb »

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2019, 06:30:43 PM »
I was thinking about using a beer barrel  :DrinkPint:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2019, 06:53:46 PM »
That would look the part, can you get them about 150mm tall? I think these days they are called cans ;D. Last time I saw one that small it was attached to a St Bernard

Or are you going to have a go at coopering? Could probably turn one from a log and just put some grooves down the sides to look like the staves and a few hoops to get the look.

Offline Elam Works

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 25
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2019, 09:52:16 PM »
Quote from: Jo
I was thinking about using a beer barrel


Well this might be over-scale, 10 x 7 dia. in the old imperial system. What was in it was less memorable than the novelty packaging, which is still around decades later as a part washer can. No doubt someone is still packaging beer in these mini-keggers; might require a little recon and research at the off-license. Also might need some volunteers to carry away the contents, especially if it is cheap and nasty like Badger.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 09:57:17 PM by Elam Works »

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2019, 04:44:17 PM »
Thanks Doug, That casket looks about the same size as the one we emptied last year. I think both might be a bit big.

I am still working towards finding where to bolt down that bracket for the flywheel so I need to be able to find the centre of the cylinder that means it would be a good idea to make the beam pivot  ;)

I have made my two bearing blocks out of brass which is not a good bearing material  :disappointed: So machined them as a pair I have fitted mine with  oillite bearings. This has the advantage that I probably won't need to oil the bearing in my lifetime  :)

With the blocks then the beam support can be machined and the bearings fitted to it. The one area that is easy to miss is that the bottom studs must have a bit of extra material removed above the bottom clamping surface so that there is sufficient space for the securing nuts to rotate.

I found a piece of rusty old stuff, it was horrible :facepalm2: I think it had been chain drilled out of the centre of something but in it I found the top collar for the Displacer Cylinder  :cartwheel:

Another family shot for those of you who are watching quietly in the background  :cheers:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Dave Otto

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3632
  • Boise, Idaho USA
    • Photo Bucket
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2019, 12:24:20 AM »
Coming along nicely Jo!

I'm curious about the size and scale of your engine, you are calling it a 3" engine; is this the bore size?
It seems that from the photos it is more like the size of the 1/4 scale 2" engine from Myers?
The 3" engine from Myers is a large model at 25" tall to the top of the 13" flywheel.
The legs on your engine seem to be shaped differently that the US versions, is this just the way they were modeled or were the original engines different in England than the US?

Dave

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2019, 07:38:58 AM »
Thank you Dave,

I am calling it a 3" engine as that is what the supplier Camden Miniature Steam Services calls it. In the UK a 3" engine means a 3" to the foot i.e. a 1/4 scale engine. I know that Rider Ericsson sold their engines based on the bore size so a 8" engine had an 8" bore so in their parlance this would be a 2" engine  :headscratch: which would be confusing for a UK audience. This model is a 1/4 scale model of the engine at the Henry Ford Museum as documented in "Steam and Stirling - engines you can build", the original engine had a 3 7/8" stoke this one has a 1" stroke.

Adam at Camden did not have access to the original engine so he based his patterns on the drawings in the book with a few modifications to make the patterns/castings easier to work with.

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6748
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2019, 08:20:28 AM »
It's a bit of an unusual way to do it in the UK as generally only traction engines and road steam subjects use that convention of inches to the foot with stationary engines using fractional scales. So just like in the book most people in the UK would describe it as 1/4 scale.

Though they did list it as  3" scale not just 3" so less likely to be related to bore.


Offline Dave Otto

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3632
  • Boise, Idaho USA
    • Photo Bucket
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2019, 01:30:57 PM »
Thanks Jo

That clears it up for me. :)
I have castings for both the 2" (1/4 scale) and 3"(3/8 scale) engines. The 3" castings are from Myers and the 2" castings are old enough that they were from Norbert Keely the guy that originally did them way back. I think Clarence Myers acquired the patterns for the Rider-Ericsson and also the Essex fan from Norbert. Need to find time to work on them someday.

Dave

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2019, 04:25:04 PM »
Strikes me you have a lots of sets of castings Dave that need to be converted into models. Maybe I should send Surus over to check you are treating them correctly.  :pinkelephant:


A little bit more on the engine. A set of studs made for the beam Support and the bottom of the support has been shaped up. The drawings suggest that the cylinder should be shaped back to match this support  :noidea:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline bent

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Wet side of Washington State, USA
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2019, 06:22:50 PM »
Nice progress, Jo.  :popcorn:

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2019, 07:24:15 PM »
Thanks Bent  :)

I am still working towards being able to bolt down that bracket.... so next I need to do the beam, which will locate the crankshaft. The beam was banana shaped  :facepalm2: Having milled some flats on the sides I found that there was a 1.3mm off set between the ends of the beam and the centre features.

The reference is the pivot so first up find the pivot's centre (checking the two ends fit reasonably on the beam) and set up to bore it. This could them be used to face the two ends, one of which is slightly further out than the other and with the banana shape the tool caught the ribbing  :Doh: Before taking down the two edges either side of the oval hole.

Next a bit of hole drilling.

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12785
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2019, 03:14:36 PM »
The beam was mounted onto a plate to enable two holes in the beam end to be reamed, the slot for the piston rod to cut, the side ribs to be milled straight and for the top and bottom ribs to be thinned.

The casting around the piston rod slot was a bit uneven so was filled to bring it up then smoothed down with a hand file and some emery.  The beam could be milled to make the ribs at the top and bottom thinner but I have already taken about 4mm off so I will leave it there for now  :) .



Thanks to Muddled Engineer for the visit today  :-*. Surus made a big fuss over him and even let him look through his casting collection   :headscratch: I think it was a ploy to see if Eric had any more casting sets that he thought Surus needed...It was found that he still needs a Stuart 6A and the 600 :pinkelephant:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
  • Søften - Denmark
Re: Camden 3" scale Rider-Ericsson Hot Air Pumping Engine
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2019, 08:22:04 PM »
Nice progress with the beam and engine Jo  :cheers:

Still following along  :popcorn: