Author Topic: Auto reversing winch (Read 3753 times)

Brian Rupnow · « **on:** September 11, 2019, 04:49:20 PM »

After completing the vertical hit and miss engine, I have tried three or four different ways to make the engine go in and out of "hit and miss" no load operation and "only hit-no miss" loaded operation. Some of the things I tried were successful, but they demanded that I be part of the operation. I wanted something totally automatic to do this job, where I wouldn't have to be involved. My absolute best video of the engine doing what I wanted was with the engine turning a winch to raise a load. I have done a great deal of thinking how this could be done without needing me to engage and disengage the winch. So---I'm a bit early into the game here, but far enough to share a concept. Last year I designed and built a mechanism that would reverse a flat belt drive, in order to mimic the reversing of a belt drive from a line shaft. It worked. It was rather crude and "sorta" worked but after making a couple of videos of it in operation it has set on a shelf in my office and never been touched again. However--there was a little bit of magic at work there, because when the lower shaft was driven by a motor, the two semi transparent drums turned in opposite directions. Now, imagine a winch drum that sets between the two outside drums and is not keyed to the shaft. It is actually a bit narrower than the space. Think "dog clutch". If I had a mechanism that would slide the drum to the left or to the right, it would rotate clockwise when forced up against the driven drum on one side, and counterclockwise when it was forced up against the other drum. Now think of two mechanical "bobs" attached to the winch line, that contact an arm at maximum height and forces the moveable winch drum against the opposite driven drum. This reverses the rotation of the winch drum and pays out line until at minimum height the second "bob" contacts the same arm and swings it over against the other driven drum. There won't be enough force to make the faces a friction drive. It will have to be a dog clutch that engages very easily. Will share more with you fellows after I have thought this out a bit more clearly in my head.---Brian

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #1 on:** September 11, 2019, 04:51:09 PM »

I have worked out all the design of the self reversing winch. When the "bobs" on the string hit the arm which is attached to the bevel gear, the bevel gear rotates (only a little bit) and causes the second bevel gear to rotate. The carrier rotates (again only a little bit) and the bearings attached to it cause the winch drum to move to either the right or to the left. As soon as the winch drum rides up against either semi transparent drums, the built in dog clutch (which you can't see in the models) engage and turn the winch drum either clockwise or counterclockwise until the other "bob" attached to the string hits the arm and moves the winch over against the other drum which is rotating in the opposite direction.

Ye-Ole Steam Dude · « **Reply #2 on:** September 11, 2019, 04:59:44 PM »

Hello Brian,

If I understand what you are looking for I believe you need to look at a cut-away of the lower unit on an outboard motor. That is where the "reversing" mechanism is and a simple "lever" slides a double bevel gear in both directions, thus engaging Forward or Reverse for the propeller. Hope this will help.

Have a great day,
Thomas

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #3 on:** September 11, 2019, 06:12:24 PM »

Thomas--I have seen that, and you are correct. I do not have the capacity to easily make bevel gears at home. I have made a set, "just to see if I could" and they are what I will be using here. About 90 percent of this thing is already built, from a job I done last year.--Brian

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #4 on:** September 12, 2019, 04:53:07 PM »

I've been rethinking this mechanism. This picture shows the current state of what I am starting with. I have spent a few hours this morning rethinking the design to let me use more of the parts that I already have. The model shows my change in design direction.

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #5 on:** September 14, 2019, 11:47:32 PM »

Today I made the winch drum and put the groove in each side that gives me the "dog clutch". The knurled round part setting beside the new winch drum is one of the original parts that has been drilled and had a piece of 1/4" shaft Loctited into it. (the other existing drum is laying at the front of the mechanism.) Due to the gearing, the two knurled drums rotate in opposite directions--they are locked to the shaft which is actually three individual shafts--right shaft fixed to right knurled drum, left shaft attached to the left knurled drum, and a floater shaft between the two which is not powered. The winch drum is shifted from one side to the other to reverse it. There is going to end up being a very small gap between the winch drum and the 1/4" shafts that are mounted in the existing knurled drums because the winch drum must not engage both drums at the same time.

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #6 on:** September 19, 2019, 09:08:55 PM »

The reversing winch mechanism is finished. It operates very smoothly on the test bench. The pivot for the gear segment got changed from a shoulder bolt to a 3/8" shaft with ball bearings, to prevent binding at the pivot. Tomorrow I will do a dynamic test. If it is successful, then I will post a video.

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #7 on:** September 19, 2019, 10:26:03 PM »

I think I am going to have to add a counterweight to the other side of the gear segment axis. I have tried to make everything very "free" so that nothing will bind. I've succeeded so well that the weight of the offset arm makes the winch drum change sides.

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #8 on:** September 20, 2019, 03:54:38 PM »

This morning was the first "trial run" of the system, and I am quite happy with the results at this time. The winch drum does reverse as I had hoped, and does so quite smoothly. I am going to add something similar to a ball indent pin to hold the mechanism in forward or reverse gear so it doesn't move from vibration as it runs. Thanks for having a look.---Brian

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpDmpUL3wIc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpDmpUL3wIc</a>

Ye-Ole Steam Dude · « **Reply #9 on:** September 20, 2019, 04:11:33 PM »

Hello Brian,

That unit seems to operated very smoothly, great job of design work

Have a great day,
Thomas

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #10 on:** September 20, 2019, 07:22:29 PM »

This "add on" will be my version of a "detent" system" for the mechanism. The purple rod is spring steel.

Johnmcc69 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 20, 2019, 07:25:32 PM »

Great job Brian! A really smooth transition between forward/reverse.
Nice design.

John

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #12 on:** September 21, 2019, 08:47:40 PM »

Not the worlds greatest picture, but you can see the spring steel arm with a "wheel" on the end of it. That wheel bears against a ramp that has it's high spot in the center. This gives a very definite feel to the mechanism being engaged for either clockwise or counter clockwise. It no longer will allow the arm to drop due to the effect of gravity.

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #13 on:** September 23, 2019, 03:01:12 PM »

Today was the first trial run of the automatic reversing winch. It is doing what I wanted it to do. This is kind of a cobbled together set-up, but it certainly serves as a test of my concept. Things are a bit jerky at the beginning of the video, but then it smooths out and seems to work quite well.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5g5DzEh0VE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5g5DzEh0VE</a>

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #14 on:** September 24, 2019, 02:44:09 PM »

I'm quite excited about this, and want to move forward to a point where it is being ran with my vertical hit and miss engine model. But--My back is sore. Very, very sore. Sore enough that I've convinced myself to stay out of my shop and garage for a few days. I hope to have a video of it running by the end of the week, but until my back eases off, nothing is going to happen.---Brian

crueby · « **Reply #15 on:** September 24, 2019, 02:56:28 PM »

Quote from: Brian Rupnow on September 24, 2019, 02:44:09 PM

I'm quite excited about this, and want to move forward to a point where it is being ran with my vertical hit and miss engine model. But--My back is sore. Very, very sore. Sore enough that I've convinced myself to stay out of my shop and garage for a few days. I hope to have a video of it running by the end of the week, but until my back eases off, nothing is going to happen.---Brian

Ouch! Definitely take your time and let it heal well before pushing things in the shop.

Admiral_dk · « **Reply #16 on:** September 24, 2019, 09:21:20 PM »

What kind of back problems Brian ?

I had a few times over the last 30 years where my lower back has been so bad that I could hardly walk (step length max 2") and this has "only" been muscle problems. In my case the cure is very simple - very strong heat to applied to the area in question - either hot water or infrared light - hot enough to be over the pain threshold (it hurts quite a bit), for some 10 minutes once or twice a day. If I start as soon as I suspect it coming - once can be enough - where as if it has been going on for days before I start the cure, it requires more treatments.
If your problem is bone or joint related none of the above will be of much use - one of those will be Chiropractor teotary ....

Best wishes for a speedy recovery

Per

Ye-Ole Steam Dude · « **Reply #17 on:** September 24, 2019, 09:34:22 PM »

Hello Brian,

We both have talked about the ole back giving us fits so I am right there with you. Last couple of weeks I have really been careful about everything that I did and my back was feeling much better....and then this morning me and a friend did some work on my Ham Radio Tower and I am now paying for it big time. Please take your time to recover, the little machine can wait.

Take care and have a great day,
Thomas

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #18 on:** September 24, 2019, 09:39:53 PM »

Thanks for your concern guys. I have had an MRI on my back, and I have a couple of discs between the vertebrae in my lower back that are bulged. Not serious enough to demand surgery, but serious enough to hurt like heck. Per, you are right. heat does help a lot. I spent most of today (other than my fat mans walk) setting on the couch with a heating pad behind my back.---Brian

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #19 on:** September 25, 2019, 04:21:19 PM »

I spent yesterday with a heating pad on my back, and no shop work at all. Today my back feels much better. so after making a new weight and some other small changes on the winch mechanism, I was ready for test #2 of the automatic reversing winch. I'm quite pleased with this, and will be removing the electric drill and bolting the vertical hit and miss engine into place this afternoon.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTlMzcSJsFE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTlMzcSJsFE</a>

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #20 on:** September 25, 2019, 05:32:58 PM »

So--Here we have it. The reversing winch is being driven by the hit and miss engine. Unfortunately, the speed which it is running at doesn't clearly show the engine's hit and miss action. I am somewhat "tied in" to what you see. The rpm of the engine is fixed. It is running at the "optimum" speed for this engine. I can change pulley diameters to slow things down, but in doing so, this inversely changes the amount of torque that the engine exerts on the winch, and affects the point at which the hit and miss mechanism on the engine operates. The hit and miss mechanism is very sensitive to torque loading on the engine. The diameter of the winch drum itself is "fixed". I may play around a bit with the weight on the end of the winch rope, but for now, this is what we have.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue9u-wGfmCw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue9u-wGfmCw</a>

crueby · « **Reply #21 on:** September 25, 2019, 08:02:57 PM »

Pretty slick!

doubletop · « **Reply #22 on:** September 25, 2019, 11:36:38 PM »

Brian

Pretty neat!!.

Surely the hit/miss ratio is determined by the work being done so varying the weight is the way to go?

Pete

Brian Rupnow · « **Reply #23 on:** September 26, 2019, 01:09:57 AM »

Pete--Systems like this are infinitely variable if you keep have the patience to keep playing with them. I did add to the weight after the most recent video was made, and it made a slight difference. I have the notion that if I dismounted the winch drum and turned it to a smaller diameter, it would probably do the trick. At his point in the game, I'm tired of playing with the system. I may in future do a bit more work on it, but I'm all machined out for a while.---Brian

doubletop · « **Reply #24 on:** September 27, 2019, 12:03:43 PM »

Brian

I know what you mean. You emprically make changes here and there and you end up with these changes not doing what you expect, being not entirely sure what happened and which way to go next.

Best to park it for a while and wait for an inspiration.

Pete

Craig DeShong · « **Reply #25 on:** October 03, 2019, 01:25:36 AM »

Brian is well on the way towards a perpetual motion machine!

Seriously... NICE JOB!

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Author Topic: Auto reversing winch (Read 3753 times)