Mk 3 Quorn!

[steamer]

Looks and sounds sexy to me.    Looks like it uses the original castings, but have redesigned a lot of the complications out.....

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Quorn__Mk3__T_C__Grinder.html

Anybody have an inside line on this one?

Dave

[steamer]

I just bought the drawing package....I'll let you know....

Looks good!.....and same size as the 265-6 spot on the bench......

Dave

[Jo]

The main problem with the Quorn is the time it takes to set it up to grind the tools (and it is limited to the type of tools it will regrind but  horizontal milling machines these days are not as common so that matters less ) .

These days few people actually regrind their milling cutters as the Chinese are supplying carbide ones so cheap that commercial cutter grinders went through a stage when they were being thrown away (I ended up with two cutter grinders so sold my Quorn bits)

The book "Building the Quorn" by Prof Chaddock is a must as it explains all the required grinding techniques for the cutters.

Jo

[PJPickard]

I'm curious about this too. I have a Quorn that is about 75% built. The ER collet sounds great and the new toolholder. I wonder if the toolholder will work with the old parts I have?

[Chipswitheverything]

This move by Hemingway should at least relieve the Quorn users ( mostly builders ) forum of requests about sourcing castings etc. now that Ivan Law and MES are of the past.   
  I am about 60% through a Mark 2 Quorn build from MES castings bought in 1983 !!,  (have done most of it during this year..) ( NB, the spindle in the photo is an EMCO 8mm spindle that I'm hoping to adapt, it has the same body size as the Quorn one ).  But a couple of years ago I spent (far too) long helpfully rebuilding a working Quorn Mark 1 from a couple of badly machined and unusable examples that a friend had acquired on Fee Pay. Having persuaded this Quorn into working condition at last, I sharpened a few hundred end mills and slot drills, and more for another friend, so it has been a useful exercise. 
  But I would agree with Jo that the Quorn is not that easy to set up, though Hemingway states that some of this has been addressed by their reconfiguration. Though not mentioned in the procedure notes for Quorn use, what I found very helpful was to have the machine on a flat baseboard ( thick MDF or such ) so that a stylus type of dial indicator on a suitable handy base could be brought into use to check height adjustments and parallelism as the setting up was being done.
 However, the making of the Quorn is an interesting exercise in machining ingenuity and a satisfying project for those who like some toolmaking along with model making.  Dave

[steamer]

Hi Jo,

Yes I'm aware of the set up short comings of the Mk 1 and Mk2...as I've made a study of all this before.   What I was interested in was the changes in the Mk 3?    It states that they've addressed most of these set up issues..and I was wondering about the details.    I can't find ANYTHING on the Mk 3 other than at Heminway.

For end mills, well.   End mills here are still pricey...and I'd like to resharpen the larger ones , especially the good quality carbide ones I have...they are pricey indeed

Up until yesterday, My money would be on,......as far as home shop cutter grinders designs is concerned....The Glen Wilson design...it's specifically for lathe tools and end mills...both tips and flutes, and has an air bearing....though I think he had a large quantity of bits of Coldrolled steel....because everything was made up of many bits.   I'd probably combine some parts and reduce parts count.
An ER20 collet in the air spindle would be the way to go for me I think.  The design tilts the work head such that the front face of the spindle centerline is the origin of rotation...which makes set up pretty easy.

But......there's the MK3...and I wanted to give it a fair shake, and I like looking at the various designs to gain the insight.

Hi Dave,    We have access to castings for the Mk1 and Mk2 by way of Martin Model and Pattern.   Nice castings they are!...    That would reduce the cost of shipping to the USA pretty dramatically....thou a full set of castings is about $350 here...

PJ....it seemed to be intimated that the castings haven't changed....but there were changes in detail.     That was the focus of my initial post....

Dave

[steamer]

The other annoying aspect of the design is the fast pitch thread on the column....I don't really have a provision for driving the spindle through the leadscrew like the Myford does...and the quickest pitch I can cut on my lathes is 4 threads per inch...which I suppose is fast enough.....

I have a milling head that I can put on either head and essentially thread mill the slot.....just not the pitch in the print.....

Dave

[Jo]

It does not have to have that fast pitch thread: it is only there to fast raise and lower the head. If you are happy to turn the height adjuster round the column a few more times I would go with that - over the life time of using the tool it will probably take less time than cutting the thread.

Jo

[steamer]

The Darex E90 would do the trick as well....

Dave

[PJPickard]

Steamer,

What is the Glen Wilson design?

[steamer]

Hi PJ

I looked for a half hour on google, and could not find a picture of it!....The plans were published in MetalWorking Vol 4 No 2 in 1991.     It was later republished in Projects in Metal book 2

Here's a amazon link to this book
https://www.amazon.com/Metalworking-Best-Projects-Metal-1990/dp/094165317X

It looks much like a Darex E90, but smaller and the plans include an Air bearing spindle workholder for end mill flutes and a lathe tool work head.

the design is a bit lacking in the spindle bearing department, but a Quorn spindle here would work fine, and there are plenty of plans for that floating around,

What it has going for it is it's a lot easier to build than a quorn, though you trade that for not being able to do some things like grind taps, or saw blades....it's really all about endmills and lathe tools...  that said, I think most of us really would only have interest in Endmills and lathe tools with the occasional need to sharpen a gear cutter, which is pretty easy with some simple additions to the wilson design.

The plans utilize a ton of 1/4 and 3/8 steel plate and welding....He must of had a bunch of bar stock in his inventory.   The cobbled together components could stand to be combined in many area's in the interest of reducing parts count further.     The slide system is very basic, but cleverly thought out, and quite suitable to home shop manufacture, and unlike the qourn, are protected from swarf and grit by some very clever dust shields.     I personally would use hardened thompson rod and hardened steel drill bushings , thou the plans don't call for that

The base is a weldment, though I'd probably make it out of plate and screw it together, or just hog it out of a thick piece.

Dave

[steamer]

PJ

Here's a overall pictures from the first page of the build article

If your interested in it.....I looks like Amazon is the only place I've found for the book

It appears to be out of print at Village Press

Dave

[PJPickard]

Thanks for the info, a friend has all those books. There are so many of these cutter grinders out there!

[steamer]

PJ

If you have a good supply of plate for the base.   This could be a very cheap solution...but if you're buying all the stock...it starts to get pricey.

I have some big pieces of aluminum, but I really wouldn't want to make the base from that I think..

Dave

[steamer]

OK...so if I buy the Q Mk3 whole kit.....EVERYTHING...to make the MK3....that includes motor, electrical switch components, fully machined spiral column, wheels, belts castings raw material,  plans and instructions it's about 631 "quid" + 114 quid to ship to the US. or about $913.   Martin model and pattern has a full Mk2 casting set for about $350 plus shipping here in the US, but then you have to source everything else, so I think the price will probably be a bit cheaper but not super significantly.     I'd say maybe $600 as a build budget, but with more time invested sourcing the off the shelf and materials required to finish it.

The HOPE here is that the components are now far less onerous to machine!

AS a comparison....I sourced the base materials for the Wilson T&C grinder including a Blanchard ground top plate, and CRS bar for the sides with the intent of bolting the base and that came in around $140 plus the rest of the machine...so Honestly, I'd estimate the cost at $500 for materials for the WTC.   

Again ....all this assumes you're buying the materials new on the retail market and not digging into the scrounge pile or the "lucky box"....some of us have bigger piles than others.

So the question then is begged....is it worth it to build one?   I love the idea of doing it myself...but I'm not physically able to do the hours in the shop that I once was.....this leg isn't the same as it was, which is frustrating....

I'll ponder.....I'm a stubborn ()*#(*@( !
.....then again

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Darex-E-90-Tool-Grinder/254318858495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D393851d0c9424d15ae525aa6736a0505%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D261402197025%26itm%3D254318858495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2481888&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A7330eda2-c5cb-11e9-9112-74dbd180d83a%7Cparentrq%3Abf85ee0c16c0a9e8a241e90fffed7d13%7Ciid%3A1

Dave


Full disclosure,  the Darex can't do lathe tools.....which the other two can.....I'm not convinced that's a show stopper as I have a baldor style grinder that does lathe tools already.....

[Jo]

Cutter grinders look to be very expensive that side of the pond 

Jo

[steamer]

Cutter grinders look to be very expensive that side of the pond 

Jo

That reference was a CHEAP one......$2k TO $4k is more "normal"...
And unfortunately for me....that cheap one is 3000 miles away and is local pick up only.....

A cuttermaster, perhaps missing the air spindle would be a good fit...and be near $1K....  I have a Weldon air spindle tucked away....That could bolt on ...

Dave

[ChuckKey]

Up until yesterday, My money would be on,......as far as home shop cutter grinders designs is concerned....The Glen Wilson design...it's specifically for lathe tools and end mills...both tips and flutes, and has an air bearing....though I think he had a large quantity of bits of Coldrolled steel....because everything was made up of many bits.   I'd probably combine some parts and reduce parts count.
An ER20 collet in the air spindle would be the way to go for me I think.  The design tilts the work head such that the front face of the spindle centerline is the origin of rotation...which makes set up pretty easy.

From the pictures, that design seems to completely ignore the desirability of keeping grinding grit out of the works.

[steamer]

Up until yesterday, My money would be on,......as far as home shop cutter grinders designs is concerned....The Glen Wilson design...it's specifically for lathe tools and end mills...both tips and flutes, and has an air bearing....though I think he had a large quantity of bits of Coldrolled steel....because everything was made up of many bits.   I'd probably combine some parts and reduce parts count.
An ER20 collet in the air spindle would be the way to go for me I think.  The design tilts the work head such that the front face of the spindle centerline is the origin of rotation...which makes set up pretty easy.

From the pictures, that design seems to completely ignore the desirability of keeping grinding grit out of the works.

Only the top slide bearings....the bottom slides are covered....the quorn is far worse...

[steamer]

Up until yesterday, My money would be on,......as far as home shop cutter grinders designs is concerned....The Glen Wilson design...it's specifically for lathe tools and end mills...both tips and flutes, and has an air bearing....though I think he had a large quantity of bits of Coldrolled steel....because everything was made up of many bits.   I'd probably combine some parts and reduce parts count.
An ER20 collet in the air spindle would be the way to go for me I think.  The design tilts the work head such that the front face of the spindle centerline is the origin of rotation...which makes set up pretty easy.

From the pictures, that design seems to completely ignore the desirability of keeping grinding grit out of the works.

Only the top slide bearings....the bottom slides are covered....the quorn is far worse...

And Frankly....with a little "tin knocking", a nice little cover could be made for the top slide without too much trouble.  the micrometer screw could also be replaced with a Micrometer thimble....which is pretty sealed up

Dave

[Neil-Lickfold]

The mk3 really does look to be quite impressive. I use a Deckel SO cutter grinder quite often. Mainly D bits or special shaped single edge tools.
It is all exposed slides etc. We just brush it down before moving anything and keep it clean. I think the real secret is to keep it clean and dry. Any oil anywhere just becomes a lapping pastes and they wear out real quick. Keeping all the edges next to the shafts etc very sharp and not de burred , also help to keep the junk out too.
A second hand Deckel grinder goes for over 3k, while a new Asian one is like near 2k but not as good as a near worn out Deckel.
I would be keen to hear from anyone who has made the kit, or from plans, what they think of the finished machine.
Neil

[Chipswitheverything]

Just taken another look at the information that Hemingway have published about their Mark 3 improvement on the time honoured design of the Quorn.
 
 Will be interested, when Dave has received his drawing package and had a chance to look through it, as to whether the components really are easier to machine: such as I can gather an impression of, including the well drawn "sample drawings" page of the wheelhead castings, look very much like the bits that I have tangled with in recent months.
 
 Obviously I did use a mill where helpful, and the Professor's 1970's machining notes do concentrate mainly on lathe set ups rather than assuming the mill as well.   However, having chewed over alternative set ups, mill or lathe, I did decide to go along with some of Prof. Chaddock's lathe set ups for certain castings, as perhaps being the best approach even though the mill was there.   So I suppose that my feeling would be that even with more workshop equipment tricks up one's sleeve than just a Myford and a drill, the machining may not be simplifiable to a very great extent.  But we will see!   

  Just for fun, here are some photos grabbed while doing the tilting bracket( I modded it with a suggested alternative clamping by split bush for the Rotating base spindle )…    Dave

[steamer]

Myself as well Dave.    those set ups aren't terrible, but some of the fast thread stuff just doesn't play well with my equipment...

We'll see

Dave

[steamer]

The mk3 really does look to be quite impressive. I use a Deckel SO cutter grinder quite often. Mainly D bits or special shaped single edge tools.
It is all exposed slides etc. We just brush it down before moving anything and keep it clean. I think the real secret is to keep it clean and dry. Any oil anywhere just becomes a lapping pastes and they wear out real quick. Keeping all the edges next to the shafts etc very sharp and not de burred , also help to keep the junk out too.
A second hand Deckel grinder goes for over 3k, while a new Asian one is like near 2k but not as good as a near worn out Deckel.
I would be keen to hear from anyone who has made the kit, or from plans, what they think of the finished machine.
Neil

Neil.....quite right.   Hardened bearing surfaces run dry and kept clean is pretty much ideal for something like a cutter grinder.

Dave

[Stuart]

Dave
I have built a mk2 years ago but fitted a 300w three phase motor with a vfd , it was cheaper than the preferred face mount single phase one

I built the head with a er Collette holder with a 100mm long shaft much like the mk3 pics show

The fast thread for the rise and fall could be subtiuted the a feed screw on the load side of the column much like a cross slide but vertical

It’s only there to help with the adjustment but as drawn it by the prof. It has a vertical slot to enable quick up and down, so if you do not lock the stop coller it can drop on you , if I built one now I would use a feed screw to lift the head may be slower but it safer , you rarely have to move the head vertically any way ,then only small amounts . The rocking screws in the head take care of the very small adjustments


Stuart

[steamer]

Dave
I have built a mk2 years ago but fitted a 300w three phase motor with a vfd , it was cheaper than the preferred face mount single phase one

I built the head with a er Collette holder with a 100mm long shaft much like the mk3 pics show

The fast thread for the rise and fall could be subtiuted the a feed screw on the load side of the column much like a cross slide but vertical

It’s only there to help with the adjustment but as drawn it by the prof. It has a vertical slot to enable quick up and down, so if you do not lock the stop coller it can drop on you , if I built one now I would use a feed screw to lift the head may be slower but it safer , you rarely have to move the head vertically any way ,then only small amounts . The rocking screws in the head take care of the very small adjustments


Stuart

Hey Stuart,

What is the machined part count for the Quorn?...is it over 50?

[Stuart]

I would have get the old drawings out (BTW they are of the time when the prof. Drew they all crammed on to one sheet ) but yes there will be more than 50 bits it’s the bits you cannot see inside the adjustments ,wipers , labyrinth seals etc. It’s about a years work to build , I am glad I did , would I do it again no

It’s the maths the full kit is £620 plus del. here in the UK you can buy a SO  Far East clone for £900


Have look at Stefan gottwinters you tube for some info also robin resetty you tube for the mods he did

Let me look up the links


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELTL9qTJg-o" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELTL9qTJg-o</a>


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXRMmeRd1pc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXRMmeRd1pc</a>

Stefan shows it here but it pops up in the rest of his video when he makes cutter for his pantograph engraver


Note I did get a lot of satisfaction in making the quorn mk2

There are some tricky machining operations

There is a build on the web about a quorn without castings that uses a belview /sp dished washer to pre load the magneto bearings for the spindle

Stuart

[steamer]

Thanks Stuart,

The WTC is 51 machined parts........so there's that

I've watched both of those vids...."it's a kit of parts" is a good description....

I've looked at the single lip grinders, and I own a Gorton 265-6....Similar to this one on ebay

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gorton-Cutter-Grinder-No-265-6-101321-/133009744203

They won't do flutes on end mills and I tend to trash those as well as ends

It would be nice to be able to accurately grind form tools for the lathe as well...The WTC will do all of the above
I would like to sharpen gear cutters, and the fixturing for that isn't terribly complicated....so I could add that

Dave

[Stuart]

Dave

The quorn will do the end of a milling cutter ok
But on anything less than 12mm it’s a bit hit and miss on the flutes , the difficulty is there is no provision to retract the cut , you use a finger run off the end but then it’s difficult to get back to the start
Also you really need a air bearing work head to control the end mill smoothly enough


As to form tools I chicken out on those , as I only do hobby work for myself  I use gauge plate (soft tool steel) a tapered end mill and let the CNC mill do it’s thing , harden and draw it back a bit , lap the top surface and bobs your uncle a form tool , personally I think for my use it’s a better solution


Stuart

Please do not let my remarks put any one off from making one it’s one hell of a project as you need to work to a high standard else the resultant grinding will show up your errors

[steamer]

Dave

The quorn will do the end of a milling cutter ok
But on anything less than 12mm it’s a bit hit and miss on the flutes , the difficulty is there is no provision to retract the cut , you use a finger run off the end but then it’s difficult to get back to the start
Also you really need a air bearing work head to control the end mill smoothly enough


As to form tools I chicken out on those , as I only do hobby work for myself  I use gauge plate (soft tool steel) a tapered end mill and let the CNC mill do it’s thing , harden and draw it back a bit , lap the top surface and bobs your uncle a form tool , personally I think for my use it’s a better solution


Stuart

Please do not let my remarks put any one off from making one it’s one hell of a project as you need to work to a high standard else the resultant grinding will show up your errors

Thanks for the reply Stuart.    All of your comments are why I like the WTC instead of the Quorn.   It has an Air spindle workhead and clearance for the retract. 

The stuff I do needs lathe tools, endmills and Dbits and gear cutters primarily...everything else is very rare.     

[Bobsmodels]

I acquired a Quorn more or less complete, it has an odd ball collet taper, the guy that sold it to me had no idea what it was. I took all sorts of measurements and could not figure it out.  Gary Martin sells the Quorn castings so I purchased a new tool holder from him, he also has a 5C/R8 tool holder available.  It like other projects is on the shelf awaiting a build slot.

Bob

[steamer]

Ok  I got the drawing set, and instructions, and operators guide.   Nice package!   Very well laid out, and instructive

I didn't read it cover to cover, but there are numerous alternative set up discussions, pictures and documented operations instructions for machining the more complicated bits

The column comes with the fast thread and the vertical groove machined into it already when you buy the kit

The redrawn drawings are 3rd angle projection and very well done in color and CAD.   Easy to read  11 x 17 sheets.

By all accounts, it's pretty much the same MkII unit, though the documentation is better and it's better in details.   It also goes into depth on how to set up the grinder, and has methods and tooling not available before to make set up easier to do

The spindles are ER spindle nose, which I think is a really good idea.

I wish it had an air spindle, but I think if you do a good job you could get away without one.   

I don't have any need to gash solid blanks into custom end mills, so the spiraling attachment doesn't really interest me....  I also don't need to sharpen saw blades, though gear cutters are on the docket

They approach lathe tools by holding square HSS blanks in ER round collets....which made me cringe a little, but for light cuts, it would probably work just fine...though I'd avoid cranking the nut down very tight with those!

It's clear to me that a lot of work went into the update, and the quality and utility of the finished device has seemingly improved!...

Dave
 

[TURK122]

I remember reading somewhere an article about using an old lathe with the grinding wheel mounted in the chuck and if i remember  correctly  a small modification to the toolpost to grind HSS lathe tool. If anyone can if anybody could redirect me to this article it would be much appreciated as I'd like to read it again.
Thanks
Steve