Author Topic: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine  (Read 3243 times)

Offline steam guy willy

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Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« on: April 30, 2019, 11:31:24 PM »
Hi all ,I have this engine on loan from the Norwich club and will try to get it working..... First i need to identify it so help would be appreciated.....I have called it the Ford Wyvern as the club thinks it is an old ETW Wyvern ....however there is a trembler / coil ignition box with it that has Ford inscribed upon.  The engine is 4 stroke and 1" bore  by 1.5" stroke... the flywheel is 5" and has curved spokes...So Photos  herewith.........
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 02:58:09 AM by steam guy willy »

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2019, 11:33:58 PM »
More pics.......

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2019, 11:37:00 PM »
more pics........So , any info about this including the ignition system and Cct diagram would be really helpful

Thanks
willy

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2019, 01:14:21 AM »
Willy--Could it be a Centaur by Edgar Westbury? I just finished a horizontal sideshaft engine that has the same rocker arrangement as the Centaur and the engine in your pictures. The Centaur also has a single flywheel.---Brian

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2019, 02:49:29 AM »
Hi Brian, ..had a look at the Centaur on the web but it seems to be 60 cc and 1.5" bore and 2" stroke whilst this is 1"  X 1.5"  ??  Thanks for the suggestion however ...Is your engine a Centaur ?  still wondering about the  "ford" trembler ? box ??

Willy...

Offline Ian S C

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2019, 03:46:29 AM »
Don't know about the motor, but Ford made the "Ford Coils" by the million, there's your answer, why make your own when there are loads of them available (they are getting fewer now, but you can buy new ones).
Ian S C

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2019, 04:20:21 AM »
Hi Ian , thanks for that ...yes here it is ...cool ..coil...!!

Willy

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2019, 07:14:00 AM »
Definately not  a Wyvern, cylinder to crankcase flange is different, head different etc

Probably one of many "small power" engines that were offered complete or as casting kits in the early part of the 20th centry. Each maker of these usually offered then in several horse power options such as 1/8hp, 1/4hp etc.

Standard ford buzz coil, that should "Buzz" when the engine contacts complete the circuit which gives many sparks rather than just one so it is a bit more forgiving of timing etc. Probably wants 6V on it.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 07:17:54 AM by Jasonb »

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2019, 07:55:57 AM »
Carb does have the look of a Senior about it and the oval cyl/crankcase flange is their shape.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im19330202MEE-Senior.jpg

Looks like they did make a side shaft though most of what you see are side rod (push rod) designs.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/7/7f/Im19220209MEE-TS.jpg

Pic of a larger one which looks to have cast lugs to mount the rocker arm supports on rather than what looks like a separate plate on your smaller engine. Also has the cam part way along the shaft for the electrical contacts

« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 08:19:33 AM by Jasonb »

Offline michaelr

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2019, 09:49:51 AM »
I'm inclined to agree with Jason it does look similar to a Tom Senior engine, but with a 1" bore and 1/1/2" stroke the Senior engine of that size is a push rod operated exhaust valve with automatic inlet, so my thinking is if it is the above engine did a model engineer of some skill convert the engine to cam operated valve's ?
However it will make a nice project to restore and return to running order.

Mike.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2019, 10:31:02 AM »
Mike, that sounds like a good theory. The bore and stroke would put it a the 1/16hp size and the head end of the cylinder on that size curved inwards just like Willie's engine. It would also explain the rocker bracket looking like it was cut and bent from steel sheet and the quite "square" bearing support for the gear end of the shaft rather than them having been cast. 1/16hp also had 5" flywheels





It would be a nice little engine to measure up and have a go at scratch building :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 10:34:08 AM by Jasonb »

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2019, 11:59:04 AM »
Willy--This is my engine. I designed and built it, but used the rocker arm set-up that the Centaur used.---Brian

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2019, 04:05:10 PM »
Hi all, Thanks Jason..yes this is the Tom Senior carb attached and it looks more like a 1/16 HP engine rather than a 'model' !! Hi Brian what fuel should i use and how do you actually start the engine ?  Do you just turn it over by hand ? Here is a pic from Graces Guide of the Carb...also is the ford coil a 6 or 12 Volt item ?
Willy

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2019, 04:12:44 PM »
Willy as I said earlier you want 6V on the buzz coil.

Engine should run OK on pump unleaded or Colmans fuel.

I usually get mine to start just by pulling over the flywheel (top away from the engine) but if it is hard to start then I make a starting handle, some resort to using  a cordless drill. Back in the day cord or webbing wound around the pulley would have been another starting option bit like a basic recoil start now.

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2019, 06:05:31 PM »
Willy--I use a Coleman fuel/2-cycle oil mixture at 50:1 ratio. For starting see the attached link.
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,3062.msg52982.html#msg52982

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2019, 09:41:10 PM »
Hi all, Thanks for the info  Jason  on the Tom Senior carb , it states that it is a 2 lever device ..however on my engine there is only one lever near the bottom of the mixing pipe?? so is the top lever missing or is it a different model ??   Hi Brian , thanks and we shall see what happens when i come to start it...

Willy
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 09:44:42 PM by steam guy willy »

Online Jo

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2019, 08:00:04 AM »
Another similar engine: a Stuart 1/2hp Gas Engine.

These castings were advertised on the back of ME on 3rd April 1913 (623, Vol 28)

Jo
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 08:22:44 AM by Jo »
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Offline RayW

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2019, 11:09:57 AM »
Stuarts made two very similar models, the 1/8 horsepower, which was ungoverned, and the 1/2 horsepower with flyball governor.
The smaller engine had a bore of  1 1/2" and a stroke of 2 3/4", and the larger one had a bore of 2 1/2" and a stroke of 3 1/2".
Attached is a picture of my 1/2 horsepower, which has featured previously on the forum.
Ray

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2019, 02:42:29 PM »
Hi Jo and RayW thanks for the pics and info...so these look like engines intended for continuous hard work with the water jackets  etc ..I like the valve construction with the rotating wearing bushes  and the extra wide main bearings.  The more i look at my engine the more i appreciate good old fashioned engineering!! no plastic at all ,apart from the insulation on the sparking Cct. I wonder what these engines were actually used for ?? Ice cream equipment or coffee grinders and i suppose one could use potato alcohol when  'peak oil' arrives...Perhaps my engine is a 'model' of the 1/2 Hp one !!

Willy

Offline RayW

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2019, 03:15:46 PM »
Hi Willy,

These were very much working engines, not models. One use in particular was for charging car batteries or accumulators. In the Stuart literature, it states that they could quote for complete plants with dynamo, etc.
Ray

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2019, 03:39:40 PM »
Dynamo would also power a light bulb so you could see what you were doing on your treadle lathe on those dark winters nights in the '20s

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2019, 01:20:12 AM »
Hi All i have been looking at the web to find out about the Ford trembler coil sparking system.. so ...i have the trembler coil contacts working but no spark at the plug. this is indicative that the 100 year old condenser has failed. This means taking the old condenser out and replacing with a new 47 microfarad 400 V working item.  Unfortunately the local Maplin store has closed down so i will have to source one elsewhere ..... there is a photo of how someone else has fitted a new modern small capacitor , Also , i have made a base and reassembled the engine with the water tower in place, however it is very close to the carburettor which stops the starting lever moving to the fully open position. also i will have modify the extra long exhaust and silencer. It is the Doncaster  Exhibition this W/E and i will be going with the Norwich club...so ..if any body wants to meet up (once all the castings have been acquired) we could do that....
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 01:31:32 AM by steam guy willy »

Offline Bluechip

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2019, 10:49:23 AM »
Hi All i have been looking at the web to find out about the Ford trembler coil sparking system.. so ...i have the trembler coil contacts working but no spark at the plug. this is indicative that the 100 year old condenser has failed. This means taking the old condenser out and replacing with a new 47 microfarad 400 V working item.  Unfortunately the local Maplin store has closed down so i will have to source one elsewhere ..... there is a photo of how someone else has fitted a new modern small capacitor , Also , i have made a base and reassembled the engine with the water tower in place, however it is very close to the carburettor which stops the starting lever moving to the fully open position. also i will have modify the extra long exhaust and silencer. It is the Doncaster  Exhibition this W/E and i will be going with the Norwich club...so ..if any body wants to meet up (once all the castings have been acquired) we could do that....

I do hope you've just missed out the decimal point ???

Got some here BTW if you want some   :headscratch:  0.47uF 400V  CPC # CA05385

https://cpc.farnell.com/vishay/2222-368-55474/capacitor-0-47uf-400v-5pk/dp/CA05385

Dave
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 10:59:39 AM by Bluechip »

Online Alyn Foundry

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2019, 12:28:17 PM »
Hi Willy.

That's a very nice Tom Senior! I've never owned one but do have a carburettor sitting on a shelf.

The top screw you're referring to is the mixture control, the builder might have considered this as a more controlled operation over the lever action.

The lower lever is your " throttle " so I wouldn't be too worried about it not opening all the way as the engine could easily rev up to self destruction in the fully open position.

What I do like is the way the original builder has effectively converted the " Simpex " design into the
" Superior " format, and very nicely done too.

You could also consider using Propane as the fuel instead of " smelly " petrol by using a low pressure demand regulator. Being spark ignition finding the " sweet spot " is far less difficult than with " hot tube " ignition, I can tell you!!

Cheers Graham.


Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2019, 03:06:48 PM »
Hi Dave, thanks for the info and i have just ordered some from CPC...and thanks for your kind offer ! We used to have a Maplin store in Norwich ,...but alas no more.....

Hi Graham , thanks for the reply and info.. The engine is the property of the Norwich model engineers so i shall keep the fuel system as found !! So , were these engines supplied as kits or as ready made engines for battery charging or lighting and what was the original ignition system supplied with it  ? or did they spec using a model T ford trembler coil ?  Can one still buy modern trembler coils for these engines ? And i do like the workmanship that has gone into this engine !!. Do you know what the compression should be as one can do with a modern car engine . This engine turns very sweetly and which way round should the engine run ? Thanks for your interest in this project . I have had a very detailed and informative prognosis about the cooling tower operation from MJM on his thermodynamic  thread ...

Willy

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2019, 03:21:28 PM »
You can buy modern "buzz coils" which are just a small circuit board with a few components and a small coil on them about the size of a matchbox that are triggered by contact points or a hall sensor. You can also still buy the contacts that are on the top of your box (engineers emporium do them) and add an ATV coil and lawnmower condenser and you have a buzz coil which is what I posted the video of earlier.





Usual convention is top of the flywheel moves away from the cylinder.

They sold kits and complete engines, you could also pay to have various parts such as crank or flywheel machined if you were not upto doing those. Also complete electrical plants





As for fuel if you don't want the smell of petrol get some "Colmans fuel" from a camping shop or e-bay or Aspen fuel but that doe snot come in such small amounts.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 03:26:41 PM by Jasonb »

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2019, 04:02:18 PM »
Hi Jason  Thanks for all this info   IC is new to me so i do appreciate all this further knowledge I have ordered a new condenser/ capacitor so might have it running soon. I was also wondering about the exhaust box that came with the engine ..is this one what might have come with the engine ? or has it been home made ?? it is quite a lengthy set up ?

Willy

Online Alyn Foundry

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2019, 05:53:26 PM »
Hi Willy.

It appears that Jason has answered most of the questions you asked of me, I'll try the rest.

Regarding compression ratios, early stationary engines weren't very high 3 towards 5:1 being common. Particularly where " hot tube " was used, pre ignition became a problem with the higher ratios.
If drawings were available this ratio could be easily found. I'm pretty sure the Stuart Turner " Sandhurst " had one of the highest compression ratios of all the range of small power stationary engines that were made throughout the 20th century.

Regarding ignition. The period literature mentions " coil " this would suggest, to me anyway, a standard coil and points system. But who knows really? At that time the " magneto " was in plentiful production and I've seen many small power engines fitted with a chain drive to one of the many types like, BTH, ML, Wico and Bosch.

I'm hoping that the new " condensor " will fix your trembler box troubles as yes, replacements are available but very expensive!

As to use, many of us forget that before the TV age Radio was King. There wasn't a " National Grid " early radio needed two different voltages. A strong 6 Volts for the valve/tube heaters and 90 Volts for the HT side. Many a little engine would be used to charge those batteries. I had a colleague in the electricity supply industry whose father supplemented his income by charging the local communities batteries using an Amanco " Hired Man " engine and Dynamo plant!

Finally, from the picture that you posted the exhaust " bottle " looks like a casting? Is it? If it is a casting its probably correct.

Cheers Graham.

Edit.

Having just re read their advertising material they mention " adjustable contact maker " as opposed to contact breaker so the coil is very likely to be the one you have.

G.R.C.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 05:58:46 PM by Alyn Foundry »

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2019, 03:09:43 PM »
Hi Graham, I have now been cleaning up the Points on my trembler box and was wondering if they are made from Platinum ?? I think that in the old days this metal was not so highly prized and was used extensively in relays and stuff ?  If so , is there lots of 'wealth' attached to all these trembler coil boxes that have been manufactured over the last 120 years ??

Online Jo

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2019, 03:45:09 PM »
Hi Graham, I have now been cleaning up the Points on my trembler box and was wondering if they are made from Platinum ??

No. It is likely to be a Silver Alloy.

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2019, 04:15:48 PM »
Don't try to clean them up too much, even on the new ones some parts are quite dark though I don't know what the material is.

This may also be of interest it shows a few different buzz coils being tested, I know Graham likes playing with electrickery. I have my name down for one of the RMC ones when Nick completes the next batch.


Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2019, 04:17:50 PM »
Hi Jo, ok thanks ... might see you at Doncaster if you are going...  I will be wearing my red Muppetchester  cap !!  sorry Manchester United cap !!!!

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2019, 04:27:35 PM »
hi Jason, thanks for the vid....there is actually so much info about these items ...Whatever did we do before the WWW ??

Willy

Offline Bluechip

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2019, 07:33:43 PM »
Hi Graham, I have now been cleaning up the Points on my trembler box and was wondering if they are made from Platinum ??

No. It is likely to be a Silver Alloy.

Jo

Or tungsten  :thinking:

https://electronic-products-design.com/geek-area/electronics/relays/relay-contact-materials

Dave

Offline Bluechip

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2019, 07:38:59 PM »

Whatever did we do before the WWW ??


Swilled ale. Rode / fell off motorbikes. Molested the womenfolk. Got molested by the womenfolk. Pleaded 'Guilty but got no money' to the beak.  etc. etc. ...... Happy days .. so I've been told.  :)

Dave

Offline Stuart

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2019, 07:45:52 PM »

Whatever did we do before the WWW ??


Swilled ale. Rode / fell off motorbikes. Molested the womenfolk. Got molested by the womenfolk. Pleaded 'Guilty but got no money' to the beak.  etc. etc. ...... Happy days .. so I've been told.  :)

Dave

I cannot remember that far back

The points could be wolfram

I was taught to never file any contact ( causes them to weld due to ridges ) the best way to clean them is to use the back of cloth emery tape never the emery side

Stuart
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 08:18:23 AM by Jo »
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2019, 10:05:34 PM »
My memory of the time back when bikes still used points, where NEVER ever use a file, emery paper (cloth) etc. - except perhaps for a short trip to the place where you could get a new set ....

Why ..?.. well they usually only lasted a few hours after you tried to work on the surface  :cussing:

I'm sure that the clean undisturbed surface was different from the rest of the material in one way or another - it might only be that sparks behaved differently on a perfectly polished surface.

I have done the repair quite a few times in my youth, as it was the only way forward at the time of action and as mentioned above - they where absolutely not serviceable after a few hours of driving.

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2019, 11:34:32 PM »
Hi All , wow  wasn't expecting all those replies   ...i have not got the condenser yet but cleaned up the points with 1200 grit emery and found it did work ok on both 6 and 12 volts !! also connected up the spark plug and found that although no condenser there was a miserable spark !!! so why did i try that  ?? because i did get a nasty shock from being too close to the ternimals when holding the wire to the positive connection... so more to learn yet still.....I spent most of my youth climbing trees and cliffs on the Isle of Sheppy trying to find those "Dinosaur eggs" that occasionally fell out !!!  perhaps i could look that up?!!!

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2019, 11:41:35 PM »
Hi Graham, yes the silencer is a casting and the pipes are copper so it will be easy to alter. Is there a reason for the length of it  and should i clean the inside of it ? and what is the best cleaner to use ?  I wonder what the inside looks like as it is just an enclosed box ??

Online Alyn Foundry

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2019, 11:55:07 AM »
Hi Graham, yes the silencer is a casting and the pipes are copper so it will be easy to alter. Is there a reason for the length of it  and should i clean the inside of it ? and what is the best cleaner to use ?  I wonder what the inside looks like as it is just an enclosed box ??

Good morning Willy.

The exhaust " bottle " was a common fitment to many stationary engines from the fractional to the immense. Usually a hollow Iron casting to allow the hot gases to expand and reduce the noise. Some were fitted with a " drain cock " to periodically drain condensate. Because of the price many would not pay for this " optional extra " preferring to do something of their own. I have several small power engines that have a polished Brass ferrule on the end of the exhaust pipe where a rubber hose would be pushed over to pipe away the gasses.

I have a feeling that the engine you're working on at present was probably exhibited at some time hence the pipe work to make things look neat and tidy.

The bottle is quite rare to see, particularly if it's the one supplied by the maker. I don't know much about Tom Senior myself, so couldn't say with confidence.

Alyn Foundry didn't just make IC engine kits, I also set up to help the preservation movement in general. We sold many exhaust castings of all shapes and sizes, tube chimneys and replacement parts from either patterns or broken parts. There's many an exhibit out there with one of my bottles attached to it!

Cheers Graham.

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2019, 01:19:05 AM »
Ok I have now removed the old condenser and have soldered a new modern one in that is a lot smaller than the original. i will replace the chipped out pitch , but as there is a lot of empty space i have filled it up with  Corylis Caluna nuts  (turkish hazelnuts)  !!! The coil is now working again and will try to get the engine running.  there is a video now on Vimeo to show the process...
   

Willy

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2019, 02:50:16 AM »
I have now been re-routing the exhaust system  and also attaching the trembler coil....so soon will be ready for start up  !!

Offline Zephyrin

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2019, 09:54:27 AM »
running your engine will smell like roasted hazelnuts, great!

nice work with the piping, although imho soft curves are to be preferred to sharp angles.

Offline sco

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2019, 09:34:58 PM »
No real idea what you are up to in the video Willy but love what you have recycled in order to make your raised beds  :ROFL:

Simon.
Ars longa, vita brevis.

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2019, 02:20:21 PM »
Hi Simon, Just trying to get this old IC engine running.......But , you know all about IC  !!!! that's the thing about being an engineer it permeates in every area of your life  !!!!  and oneway everybody will have raised beds like this...I have allways been a pioneer !!!

back to the engine...it is now ready to start up so will be fun working out how to do it with the  'odd' carburettor thingy....
Here is a similar engine from 1905....

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2019, 12:42:59 AM »
Hi All , I have now completed the wiring and tightened up all the nuts and bolts... I have made a device to start the engine  By utilising a modified Starret hole saw that is inserted in the small pulley. I have put some petrol in the tank and have turned it over quite a few times but the engine has not started. I don't know anything about small carbs and what the settings of the lever and the screw down part is. Are there any instructional vids or any other detailed info on the web or from your own experiences ??? here are a few pics of the carb etc...

Willly
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 02:22:17 AM by steam guy willy »

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2019, 07:02:21 AM »
These engines don't need much fuel so you want the mixture quite lean, probably screw that top screw down to weaken the mix. Grahams method of checking the mixture by holding a flame a couple of inches from the open exhaust port is a good way to judge mixture with petrol or gas, big orange flame indicated a rich mixture as you turn the engine over by hand.

I'd also be looking at that plug wiring as it could easily be shorting to the exhaust elbow, try turning it over in a darkened room and see if you can see the spark jumping across where it should not.

Online Alyn Foundry

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2019, 11:58:23 AM »
Good morning Willy.

From my point of view you've reached the " best " part of the restoration, getting them running!

As Jason has pointed out please check to make sure you're not loosing the HT and you've got a nice " fat " spark at the plug. I'd also suggest setting the contact maker to start just before or on TDC, compression stroke.

Propane has a very narrow band of mixture with air for combustion but Petrol/Gasoline is way more forgiving. The carburettor has a " fixed " jet, check it's not blocked. I'd forgotten that there wasn't a means of altering the fuel metering rate, just two controls for air. The top control effectively throttles the air into the cylinder whilst the lower lever is there to create a partial vacuum to draw the fuel off the jet.

To start with I'd suggest almost closing the bottom control and set the top to halfway open. Hopefully you'll get a few Black smokey bangs ( choked condition ) whereupon you can start to gently open the air
( bottom ) lever and the engine should pick up speed.

I can't stress enough the delicacy needed when " playing " with small power engines, a little does a lot at this size. Once the engine is running you can then " advance " the ignition to a few degrees BTDC for a cleaner and more powerful power stroke. Please bear in mind that with a fixed jet carburettor the engine can " race away " very quickly that's why they fitted the top air control !

I hope I've been able help? What you're doing now is what I did many times over the years whilst exhibiting my large collection of vintage stationary engines.

Cheers Graham.

Offline Roger B

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2019, 12:45:30 PM »
Have you been through the basics?
'Bouncy' compression.
Valve sequence approximately correct. Inlet valve opens around top dead centre, closes a little after bottom dead centre. Compression stroke. Exhaust valve opens a little before bottom dead centre, closes around top dead centre.
Good spark around top dead centre on the compression stroke.
Best regards

Roger

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2019, 01:32:48 AM »
Ok I have tried the engine again but to no avail ...I then tried to see if the engine valves were performing correctly by putting a balloon on the exhaust pipe assuming it would inflate ?? however it didn't !! however when i tried the engine in 'reverse' ie turning the top of the flywheel anti clockwise  top towards the engine ,it did inflate the balloon  ??!!  however when i went to reattach the carb i managed to break the inlet manifold part  :( :(  so i will have to repair this by silver soldering ...it is not broken in two so that might work ?...so ...more work tomorrow... Also more bad news .....Grumpy cat has died .....
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 01:42:20 AM by steam guy willy »

Offline RayW

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2019, 09:19:28 AM »
Hi Willy,As has been mentioned already, you only need the slightest amount of gas. If you can hear gas at the end of the gas pipe, you probably have too much. One thought, are you sure that the ignition is set to fire on the correct stroke, ie. at TDC on the compression stroke, not on the exhaust stroke?


Ray

Offline RayW

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2019, 09:35:05 AM »
Hi again Willy. This is the link to my YouTube video showing how to use a candle to check the gas mixture.
Ray

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2019, 11:09:49 AM »
Good morning Ray.

Whilst I have advocated the use of a burning candle to check the mixture of a gas engine, I wouldn't recommend doing this with a Petrol version. For a couple of reasons.

Firstly and most importantly the safety issues. Being a liquid fuel with an overly rich mixture you could end up with a fire that couldn't be extinguished easily. It's easy with gas, you just turn off the supply.

Secondly, Petrol engines are really quite forgiving where mixture is concerned as the combustion bandwidth is very wide in comparison to Propane.

From Willy's description it would appear to be a " reverse rotation " ( to the norm ) with the flywheel wanting to be driven towards the cylinder rather than away from it. The engine could be re timed by dropping the sideshaft and following Rogers description from a couple of earlier posts.

Cheers Graham.


Offline RayW

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2019, 06:30:56 PM »
Quite right Graham.  My comments were specifically for gas engines, not petrol.
Ray

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2019, 01:49:09 AM »
Hi Ray and Graham  et al   The engine is now running ...!!!!!!!  Yea ...and it is designed to run ' backwards'  as per conventional engines  ?!!!  Thanks for all your help with this and i have put a video on Vimeo... here it is    .The split inlet manifold was mended ..i used some thin multi stranded copper wire wrapped around the break and silver soldered it all up . 
   

Willy
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 03:00:11 AM by steam guy willy »

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2019, 07:25:39 AM »
Well done, it runs well for it's age and at a nice steady speed for a small engine.

Offline Roger B

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2019, 10:28:47 AM »
Nicely done  :praise2:  :praise2: The reverse rotation was a bit of a 'Gottcha' though  ::)
Best regards

Roger

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2019, 11:21:27 AM »
Yes indeed, well done Willy.   :)

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2019, 11:31:00 AM »
Reverse running ...?.. compared to what ?

Most aero engines are running counter clock wise ...!...

Nice restoration Willy  :cheers:

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2019, 12:58:55 PM »
Reverse running ...?.. compared to what ?

Most aero engines are running counter clock wise ...!...


99+% of opencrank engines run the opposite way to willy's eg top of the flywheel away from the cylinder

Ones with two flywheels could be said to run counter clockwise depending on which side you look at them from  :LittleDevil:

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2019, 01:36:18 PM »
Hi All,...Why is it always me that is different !! :Lol:  Is it because i always think outside the box ?? Was this engine made by a left handed person ?? I think the reason that these engines ran the way they do is because it is easier to start by pulling the flywheel away from the engine  ??Perhaps it was  because the engine builder chose to make the unusual valve arrangement for this type of engine ? Would it be possible to "reverse" it by repositioning the cams ? and was this a mistake by the original builder ?    So  many questions !!!! steam is so simple !!  Thanks for everybodys input to this project and i will be able to resume work on the Bressingham engine shortly.....I will also be making a longer video ..outside this time !!

Willy

Offline Zephyrin

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2019, 02:08:45 PM »
well done, great success, a nice runner, whatever the direction !
but outside owing to fumes !

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2019, 02:09:28 PM »
Well....

In true Stationary engine parlance the front of the engine is where the power was taken from, the crankshaft. We see this end as the back these days! Preferring the " gubbins " to look at.   :)

Many of the larger engine manufacturers gave the end user the option of running direction by providing the means to reverse the valve gear.

In the case of your engine Willy, there shouldn't be any need to reposition the cams on the sideshaft but simply drop the half time gear away from the crankshaft and then rotate the crankshaft by 180 degrees. Re check the operation of the valves, inlet starting to open at TDC being closed just before or on BDC. Both closed at TDC ( ignition ) exhaust starting to open just before or on BDC. Obviously in the reverse direction to what you had before !   :)

Cheers Graham.

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2019, 02:14:37 PM »
Great job Willy. I've been watching in the background, and I'm happy for you.---Brian

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Ford Wyvern type petrol engine
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2019, 01:47:32 AM »
Thanks all for your comments and further info..I will be making a longer more informative video soon.......

Willy