Author Topic: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel  (Read 298848 times)

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4425 on: August 13, 2019, 11:33:00 PM »
Thanks guys!

Though all of you punsters have missed out on a really good one. A friend of mine replied to the note about the trip out to the big sister of the Marion model next week, and asked if being a small version made the model a 'Marionette'!   :ROFL:

You guys are slipping! 

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4426 on: August 13, 2019, 11:40:27 PM »
Hi Chris , that's clever ..I may have come up with that eventually ...but did not want to belittle your work   :lolb: :Jester:

Willy

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4427 on: August 14, 2019, 09:10:56 PM »
Yesterday and today I did some experimenting with making the proper size chain for the hoist chain, made it up like a typical rod bending jig with central pins, a guide on one side, and a nose that rotates around the fixed end pin to form the wire.
Does bend it fine, but cannot get it to join up the ends effectively to finish off a link. So, went onto youtube/google to see how commercial chain is made. Appears that they do both ends at once, with a pair of forming blocks, one to get the two ends around to 90 degrees, then ones in from the ends to take the link the rest of the way round. Anyone ever try making chain this way? This is fairly small chain, 0.09375 wire, links are .4375 x .3125 outside measurements. The chain I have on the model is the right size, but the links are oval, rather than straight down the sides like the original. It works fine, but its one of those little details that would be nice to do...

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4428 on: August 14, 2019, 09:55:59 PM »
Hi Chris, When I first started work the firm I was with had a number of 4 slide machines making chain, like the one shown after minute 2:29 in the video link below. At minute 3:19 you can see a rod called the backstop jaw come forward to push the back wall of the link forward to straighten and hold it. The side roller cams come around the link ends to roll it closed, usually with a little extra bend "past centre" to get the front of the link squarish. The 4 slides at the firm were used to make all kinds of bent wire and flat strip parts. It was a fun part of my job to develop new tooling and cams for the machines to make new parts. Maybe the video and the notes above will give you some ideas to make your chain tooling to get flat links. If you get out the popcorn  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: and show the video to the shop elves they may build their own 4 slide machine and start cranking out scale chain by the mile for sale to other hobbyists!  :Lol: 


Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4429 on: August 14, 2019, 10:09:09 PM »
CNR - that is like another video I found, only difference is the other one did the last two arms at the same time rather than a 1-2 punch, basically the same, doing it 1-2 would let the formers get in without hitting each other. That kind of thing overall would help solve one of the issues I am getting, where the wire wants to pull around with the forming nose. The trick is to make it all much smaller - the normal wire forming bender needs some distance for the pivot to have some strength. Going to take a bit of thought and some playing in Fusion to work something out.


Now, since you have already made these, should be no problem to knock one out to make a few feet of chain!   ;D   

One thing I have not tried is to hammer or squeeze the existing chain to straighten the sides, have some spare lengths that could be experimented on. Maybe make a little mandrel to go in the link to keep it from changing the radius on the ends while the middle is whacked upon by Mongo the blacksmith elf...   :thinking:

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4430 on: August 14, 2019, 10:24:00 PM »
Ooh - on to something there!  Hammering the link flatter on the sides is tough, would need a grooved holder, so pulled a medium sized ChannelLock pliers out of the drawer, which has large grooves running crosswise in the faces of the jaws. Slipped that around one link at a time, squeezed down, and it did flatten the center section without deforming the ends much. Here is a pic of the initial test, the two links on the right are straightened, the two on the left are as bought, with a pronounced arc in the center of the link:

A subtle difference, but noticable. I think a little experimenting with the distance to squeeze, controlled either with a block between the grips or a little bit of rectangular bar in the link (which may be more consistant) will do the trick. The size of the wire in this chain is good, and the lengths of the links is good, it was that rounded center section that I object to. And I can do this with the existing chain, no need to make all those links....   :ThumbsUp:

Offline john mills

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4431 on: August 14, 2019, 11:00:18 PM »
interesting video but it shows little of the actual forming the better reliant part was the wafios machine
the wire is pulled through the straitening rollers two blocks squeeze together putting a curve in the blank while two eve cutters put eve in the wire where it is cut the transporter takes the blank along to the forming mandrel where
a grip finger comes in from the rear into the curve already in the blank and holds the bank while the forming rollers bend the ends around one ahead of the other and it bends it under straight .fingers hold the blank while the
mandrel goes down twists the mandrel comes back up and the next blank feeds in.the curves on the mandrel are different on each side so when welded in the welding machine the link is squeezed so the metal is fed into the weld
thats what the vee is for ,when the weld is finished the link should now bee an even shape .after heat treatment the chain is pulled to the correct length stretched so it is the final shape.the columbus mackcinion machines
are similar but usually has straight sided mandrels they bothe like straight back for the link  to sit on so when welded and trim dies try to cut the weld flash the link does not turn  .

another machine is the multi ram  bender might be easier for small links.

I spent nearly 25 years making tooling machine parts what ever was requirer making chain.I programmed and run
cnc machinery .

John   

Offline ddmckee54

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4432 on: August 16, 2019, 06:57:02 PM »
What you need to do is mill up a set of jaw inserts/dies for the Channellock pliers.  The lower die would have a Tee shaped slot in it, this slot would do 2 things.  First it would keep the chain in the proper orientation as it went through what are effectively crimping dies, and second by controlling the overall depth of this slot you could control how much you mashed the chain.  If you and the elves are sneaky enough, you could do a bunch of links in one squeeze - depending on the rigidity of the dies.

Put the chain in the crimping dies, squeeze the handle to mash the links, pull in fresh links, then lather - rinse - repeat until you're done.  Of course once you've done all the chain once, you'll need to twist the chain 90 and do it all again so that you get ALL the links.  It's either that or squeeze - twist - squeeze - twist, etc...  Which just sounds like a hassle to me.

Don

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4433 on: August 16, 2019, 08:16:06 PM »
What you need to do is mill up a set of jaw inserts/dies for the Channellock pliers.  The lower die would have a Tee shaped slot in it, this slot would do 2 things.  First it would keep the chain in the proper orientation as it went through what are effectively crimping dies, and second by controlling the overall depth of this slot you could control how much you mashed the chain.  If you and the elves are sneaky enough, you could do a bunch of links in one squeeze - depending on the rigidity of the dies.

Put the chain in the crimping dies, squeeze the handle to mash the links, pull in fresh links, then lather - rinse - repeat until you're done.  Of course once you've done all the chain once, you'll need to twist the chain 90 and do it all again so that you get ALL the links.  It's either that or squeeze - twist - squeeze - twist, etc...  Which just sounds like a hassle to me.

Don
I like it! Something like this:

The pliers jaws are in blue - the tips set screw in place from the side, a screw through from the top one could be the depth-stop to keep the links consistant. Just run the chain in the slot, working down the length...
Will give it a try - thanks for the idea!!   :cheers:

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4434 on: August 18, 2019, 10:43:28 PM »
I made up the plier tips, but they did not work well since the Channellock pliers have the pivot in such a place that the tips do not meet the same depending on the opening, causing the channel in the tips to offset. So, wound up just using the grooves in the pliers with a spacer to get consistant widths. Looks much better, just like the photo I posted the other day.

Also, the town has moved the event out at the shovel from Wednesday to Friday due to weather concerns - will post photos on Friday evening!   :cheers: