Author Topic: 0.001" end mill  (Read 5950 times)

Offline steamer

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0.001" end mill
« on: February 12, 2019, 08:26:02 PM »
Got a date with this bad Larry tomorrow.....I'll let you know how long it takes for me to break it.... :lolb:

I only have 5....

Dave
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Offline Dave Otto

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2019, 08:29:48 PM »
.001 or .002 flute length?
How are you planning to set the tool length offset without breaking it before you even turn the machine on?

Dave

Offline Johnmcc69

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2019, 08:34:07 PM »
 :o
What in the world would you ever use it on???

 John

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2019, 08:35:18 PM »
We have a high resolution video microscope.  I'll use that for tool offset.

For touch off, I have the same camera that took that picture....it's the speed thats the problem..even at 10000 rpm...im no where near fast enough

LOC is 0.0015"

Dave
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Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2019, 08:36:38 PM »
:o
What in the world would you ever use it on???

 John

All I can say is, it's NOT a model engine....

Work....
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Online Jasonb

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2019, 08:39:28 PM »
Never mind what you have to do with it, I want to see the machine that made the cutter ;)

Online crueby

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2019, 08:41:13 PM »
Should work to carve a helmet for your pet flea!   :o

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2019, 08:43:21 PM »
Never mind what you have to do with it, I want to see the machine that made the cutter ;)

Yeah no kidding!   Look at that perfectly split 2 flute with center clearance....and yes that's 0.001" OD....the radius at the center has got to be less than 0.0002"....so probably a fine grit diamond or CBN wheel

I know it's CNC ground.

That is at 225X magnification by the way.....

Dave
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Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2019, 08:43:43 PM »
Should work to carve a helmet for your pet flea!   :o

Wouldn't fit....too small!
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Offline Neil-Lickfold

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2019, 10:43:55 PM »
What are you using that cutter on? What machine and what material? Who makes those cutters? Really interesting stuff.

Offline 10KPete

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2019, 11:05:30 PM »
Please tell us more! I've never dreamed that one could be so small...

It's a George Britnell cutter.. to go with his huge penny... :lolb:

I've never even seen a drill bit close to that small :o :o

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Online crueby

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2019, 11:08:08 PM »
Smallest I have ever used are 0.5 mm dental style.  This is 19 times smaller! Yikes.

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2019, 12:39:47 AM »
Pricey little buggers I bet. Hope the boss was paying for them  :lolb:

Bill

Online crueby

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2019, 12:45:17 AM »
I'd love to see the machine that makes those.

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2019, 12:50:33 AM »
Im machining a small fluidic device.   Thats all i can say about it.   Theyre about $50 each.   No i didnt pay for it. :lolb:

Dave
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Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2019, 01:03:51 AM »
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2019, 01:18:29 AM »
If there is enough flute length left when it breaks, you may be able to re-grind the cutting faces.! :stir:
NOTARY SOJAK

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Online crueby

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2019, 01:58:46 AM »
So, feed rate is measured in microns per fortnight?

Offline Johnmcc69

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2019, 02:20:28 AM »
Break 'em & you'll pay for it somehow....
 Hope it all goes well!

 John

Offline petertha

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2019, 02:28:49 AM »
I'm curious about the spindle run out spec than spins the teeny end mill.

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2019, 02:36:00 AM »
Break 'em & you'll pay for it somehow....
 Hope it all goes well!

 John


Nahh    you set the right expectation....then over deliver.
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Offline Art K

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2019, 03:38:34 AM »
Dave,
I'm surprised you didn't break it by just looking at it.
Art
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Offline derekwarner

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2019, 05:20:06 AM »
Is the spindle run-out for this slender cutter not ........0.0 to 0.0?........inches/mm?.......doesn't matter......zero=zero  = no chatter

 :facepalm: water/fluid driven turbine drive &  :stickpoke: aligned ceramic bearings?

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Online Jasonb

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2019, 07:15:34 AM »
   Theyre about $50 each. 
Dave

I'm sure I have seen them cheaper on Banggood :LittleDevil:

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2019, 11:42:28 AM »
 Yes Derek...im aware.i
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simplyloco

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2019, 01:59:30 PM »
I still have, somewhere in the depths of my workshop, the 0.004" drill bit that Cincinnati were giving out at the 1960 something MECH show. We didn't believe there was a drill spindle fast enough in those days!
John

Offline Zephyrin

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2019, 04:12:51 PM »
I would prefer the 4 fluted ones for a better finish...

Offline kvom

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2019, 09:37:13 PM »
G-Wizard recommends a .0001 DOC for slot cutting at 30K RPM and 11 ipm in brass. 

Offline Tennessee Whiskey

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2019, 11:00:38 PM »
What would the chip load per tooth be Kirk  :shrug: 8)

Cletus


Offline b.lindsey

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2019, 12:08:10 AM »
Does dust count as a chip?? ::)

Bill

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2019, 12:50:52 AM »
G-Wizard recommends a .0001 DOC for slot cutting at 30K RPM and 11 ipm in brass. 

Well...I've only got 10K rpm...so..I'll drop that from 11 to about 3.5.....I'm going to try the first one tomorrow, at 1 IPM in Lexan,   0.0003 DOC.... :lolb:.I'll call it an attempt at 0.0003 DOC.  I'm not convinced the control system on this mill is that good...I'll probably have to try to set DOC off the part using the video microscope at 225X ...by eye!..

I'll run the mill for a while with a do nothing program cutting air while at spindle speed to warm everything up...then zero off.

I clocked the holder today and the best I could get it to be was 0.00025 run out...but it's at least repeatable.  I marked the spindle and holder
I'll check the cutter shank when I mount it prior to use...then once it's in...its not coming out till it's done.

I put a piece of Ultem in the chuck and carefully faced it.  I then put some super glue on that in a few dots making a picture frame on the part.  I then put the clean lexan down.   It is surprisingly parallel.  I'll attempt the cut the part out of the center of the frame  Can't get more specific, but I'll let you know how it turns out....This will be a short run....the real part will come if this is successful...but I'm not holding my breath....

Dave
 
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Offline Bobsmodels

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2019, 01:59:04 AM »
Yes I have seen .001 drill bit and the machine that it is uses it.  Occasionally one of our fellow modelers has it as part of his display at show in WI.  He drilled a .001 hole at an angle if I recall in a human hair.  He then passed a wire through the hole.  Kind of neat, not sure when I would ever need a  .001 hole but I sure know where to go to give it a try if I do.

Bob

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2019, 02:02:54 AM »
Yeah....well....like I said....We'll see if the machine and the jamoke driving it can make it happen..... :zap: :lolb:
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Online Vixen

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2019, 10:08:54 AM »
What machine are you using?

Is it stepper or servo actuated. If it uses steppers, what is the step resolution?

Steppers could have an impact on the cutter's survivability

Just guessing

Mike  :thinking: :thinking:
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Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2019, 11:12:07 AM »
A Tormach with steppers.   They claim 0.0025 micron resolution but its my second biggest concern  First is touch off....
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Offline b.lindsey

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2019, 12:47:48 PM »
Sounds like you are in for a few "pucker" moments today not of the Valentines variety  :lolb:

Bill

Offline kvom

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2019, 01:26:17 PM »
Unless the lexan is perfectly flat, you probably need to start with Z0 above the work and make multiple  passes.

Offline dieselpilot

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2019, 02:33:03 PM »
A Tormach with steppers.   They claim 0.0025 micron resolution but its my second biggest concern  First is touch off....
They do? I'm fairly certain it's 2.5 micron(.0001").
Is tool runout going to be low enough to use both flutes to cut?

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2019, 02:33:49 PM »
Thats the plan kvom....well see how good pathpilot is!
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Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2019, 02:35:08 PM »
A Tormach with steppers.   They claim 0.0025 micron resolution but its my second biggest concern  First is touch off....
They do? I'm fairly certain it's 2.5 micron(.0001").
Is tool runout going to be low enough to use both flutes to cut?
Unlikely....best I can get it is 0.00025
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Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2019, 03:25:58 PM »
A Tormach with steppers.   They claim 0.0025 micron resolution but its my second biggest concern  First is touch off....
They do? I'm fairly certain it's 2.5 micron(.0001").
Is tool runout going to be low enough to use both flutes to cut?
With many pumps from the one shot lubricator   i get .005mm repeatability in the z.   After waiting 5 minutes without anymore lube,  the repeatability is 0.05 mm....it realy needs continuous lubrication.....not boding well.
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Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2019, 04:58:15 PM »
Sorry about the unit flub   diesel.    Yes   .0025 mm  or 2.5 micron.....pre coffee
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Offline Neil-Lickfold

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2019, 06:44:00 PM »
My understanding is that to get the lowest possible runout, the spindle needs to have air bearings for both axial and length positions.
The most accurate collets I know of, are hydraulic collets that distort to hold the cutter.
Grade 3 ceramic balls are to or better than 0.00008mm for roundness and size variation from the smallest to the largest. Places like Cerbec can supply balls tested to 0.000026mm for roundness and variation at a cost . There may be better and more accurate balls, but then the housing and the outer and inner races have to be made super accurate as well. A lot of steels are just not stable enough to make things from to be that accurate. Which is the reason for testing of gauge blocks and micrometers on a yearly or so basis.  I know that the concentricity of the spindle bearings in  the cylindrical grinder is 0.0003mm aproximate , it may be 0.0004mm but is less than 0.0005mm total run out. The housing bearing is ground in situation on the work head, and requires to be returned for the factory to refurbish it.
I would think that a concentricity under 0.0005mm is about all you could ever expect.
When you get to measuring things less than 0.005mm , it starts to get real expensive and takes time for all sorts of reasons. But mostly because of the materials stability and the temperature it is being processed at.
Neil

Offline Roger B

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2019, 07:42:44 PM »
I was quite proud of having drilled some 0.2 mm (0.008") holes  ::) There's a lot further to go  :thinking:
Best regards

Roger

Offline Tennessee Whiskey

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2019, 09:34:44 PM »
In the words of Foster Brooks: “Uh um might need a good stiff drink or two two ahhhhh um settle your ummm nerves “ :lolb:  For those that don’t know Foster, google him. I’m anxiously awaiting the results from this experiment

Cletus

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2019, 10:47:08 PM »
My understanding is that to get the lowest possible runout, the spindle needs to have air bearings for both axial and length positions.
The most accurate collets I know of, are hydraulic collets that distort to hold the cutter.
Grade 3 ceramic balls are to or better than 0.00008mm for roundness and size variation from the smallest to the largest. Places like Cerbec can supply balls tested to 0.000026mm for roundness and variation at a cost . There may be better and more accurate balls, but then the housing and the outer and inner races have to be made super accurate as well. A lot of steels are just not stable enough to make things from to be that accurate. Which is the reason for testing of gauge blocks and micrometers on a yearly or so basis.  I know that the concentricity of the spindle bearings in  the cylindrical grinder is 0.0003mm aproximate , it may be 0.0004mm but is less than 0.0005mm total run out. The housing bearing is ground in situation on the work head, and requires to be returned for the factory to refurbish it.
I would think that a concentricity under 0.0005mm is about all you could ever expect.
When you get to measuring things less than 0.005mm , it starts to get real expensive and takes time for all sorts of reasons. But mostly because of the materials stability and the temperature it is being processed at.
Neil

Yes...All true.   The Tormach is a machine built to a price point, unlike the Diamond Turning lathes I used to work on for Moore tool and the precision grinders for Heald some 30 years ago.  Its a duplex pair angular contact bearing spindle...Probably Grade ABEC 5 or maybe ABEC 7...but I'm guessing ABEC 5.   To get the cutter run out down to the lowest point, and to get around stick slip from the dovetail ways, I had to pull some tricks out of the bag.   I'll post up my results sometime tonight....I and the machine did far better than I expected frankly! and although I don't think we hit the mark..we got closer than I expected by a long shot!....

....but it is Valentines day....and Mama wants some attention..20 years this year....and it's not the years...it's the mileage....   8)

« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 11:51:06 PM by steamer »
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Offline Tennessee Whiskey

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2019, 10:53:07 PM »
Good Lord, that’s four times as long as I’ve been putting up with you: she’s got to be a good woman  :lolb:

Cletus

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2019, 11:39:56 PM »
I've attached a picture of the test cut I did with a 0.001" diameter ( 25 micron) end mill.   I think the boss wanted to give me something fun to do and perhaps he wanted to see what I'd do with it....

There was no doubt in my mind this machine wasn't going to deliver all we wanted from this, but he asked if I would try...so I did...very hard actually.

The machine is a Tormach PCNC -440 vertical mill.   About 1.5 HP....smaller than a bridgeport, and of Chinese Origin.
https://www.tormach.com/pcnc-440/?utm_source=adwords&utm_term=tormach&utm_medium=1530712282&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIv66coam84AIVj6GzCh3fmAa3EAAYASACEgJdAPD_BwE

To see if the geometry we were after was even close to being attainable, I configured a test that would challenge all three axes.   A simple profile pocket.    It would show all three axis errors and not take long to cut..   I have things to do, so I didn't want to spend a lot of time programming this.   As it was it was programmed with the machine conversational language.  Easy peasy.

The pocket shows a center square that is supposed to be 1mm square.  The slotted "Mote"  all around are supposed to be 0.050 mm wide, and 0.025 mm deep.   The program called for 0.006 mm DOC  so several passes were required to get to full depth.

The machine spindle is a grease pack angular contact affair.  As such it's limited to 10,000 rpm maximum.    That is extremely slow for a cutter of this size....but it is what it is.

I began by seeing what kind of run out would the shank of the tool have in an ER 25 collet holder.   These holders are Bespoke Tormach quick change items.    First test showed 25 micron run out!   I think rotated the holder in the spindle until I found a minimum runout of 0.007 mm.  I marked the spindle and holder with a sharpy.   If I installed the holder in that position, the runout stayed right there.    Now 0.007mm runout  ( 0.00025") isn't very good with a 25 micron end mill......but ....it is what it is.

Next I did some checks on the repeatability of the axes, specifically the Z axis as I felt that errors there were going to break end mills....and it was a good thing I did.
the best I could manage was 0.050 mm repeatability.    That's terrible..even with "full size" end mills....so I decided to try giving the machine a few pumps of oil from it's one shot oiler while I did the measuring.    That resulted in 0.005 mm repeatability!!!  Much better!!!!   Uses a LOT of oil to do this......but .....it is what it is

Next I wrote a "do nothing" program that had the tool plane 4" above the table, and just let it run for 10 minutes at speed..to get everything up to temperature.  that would have affects on everything , so I figured I would set home and zero's after this.  and then cut.

Then I brought the tool holder and actual tool over to our OGP optical comparator, to get a tool height....cause you can't see the ))@(()#  thing!!!    It maxed the machine out, but we got a number   68.332mm.

Back to the machine, I had nearly everything I needed.   Tool length, diameter.  Now I needed Z zero.   The position of the work with respect to the tool....not an easy thing to figure if you can't see it and cant' touch it!   I set up my USB video microscope and put a gage block on the part to give me room to get the camera in.  I offset the tool by the 3 " gage block, and compared the images....Now.   I can see everything, but paralax was killing me.   At some point, you take your best guess and go with it!  ( see attached picture   at 225 X maginfication...)    But it is what it is

OK set up an air jet on the cut zone.   

Now....hit cycle start while pumping the 1 shot pump until Z stopped.   I then watched the G code scroll and when it got to a z axis change, I would pump some more!.

Interestingly, the machine moved 0.005 mm per step and not 0.006 as instructed....

In any case, on the last cut the pump was pulling air!...so the last cut was different than the previous...somewhere in the the end mill broke..I think later than earlier..but it's hard to say.

It was finishing the outside ring when it broke...the remnant of the broken endmill is still there in the part...that was when the oil supply dropped, so I'm calling it the cause.

You will notice the slots are a good deal wider than 0.05.   Between runout, and stick slip in the X and Y axis, the width got wider.    ..

My CEO was impressed!....and that was worth it....but I'm glad it's done...on to more productive endeavors!!!

The last couple of pictures show the glue chuck I made to hold the lexan, and the "chicklet" cut out of the picture frame with the little feature in it, and the 1 shop pump with the feed lines full of air...

Dave
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Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2019, 11:46:05 PM »
One last picture of the tool in front of a 3" gage block...trying to compare the two....it got a little better...but not a lot better .....

Dave
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Online crueby

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2019, 01:12:44 AM »
Cameras have a hard time focussing on a cutter that is less than a pixel across! Wow.

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2019, 01:18:47 AM »
Cameras have a hard time focussing on a cutter that is less than a pixel across! Wow.

Well if you give it a chance...its not that bad   the paralax error was killing me
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Offline dieselpilot

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2019, 01:48:45 AM »
That's not a terrible result.

but maybe one of these would fair better if they want to see much of that kind of work.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202594606134

Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2019, 02:03:44 AM »
Couldnt agree more.   They had a drill press and they gave me a few bucks to put a shop together....thats what you get for a few bucks....
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Offline 10KPete

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2019, 02:53:27 AM »
A most interesting experiment, Dave! I know that fluid logic stuff can be very tiny but that's just pushing the edges of mechanical machining right to the extreme!

Maybe get an electric pump for the oil?   :ROFL:

Pete
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Offline steamer

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2019, 07:11:52 AM »
A most interesting experiment, Dave! I know that fluid logic stuff can be very tiny but that's just pushing the edges of mechanical machining right to the extreme!

Maybe get an electric pump for the oil?   :ROFL:

Pete
Nah    get the right machine, or make the part another way...both are options....but in R&D...sometimes people just need to be shown.
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Online crueby

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Re: 0.001" end mill
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2019, 12:20:22 PM »
We used to do passages for tiny fluidics as parts of our chip manufacturing process, could go very tiny, but it did require a silicon wafer facility. Doing the same with a mill is impressive.

 

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