Author Topic: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version  (Read 6889 times)

Offline Ramon

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The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« on: February 02, 2019, 10:43:35 PM »
Hello Guys,

Before work resumes on the Corliss build I have decided to have a slight detour and have a go at making a 5cc version of the 2.5cc Oliver Tiger Mk 3. This beloved British made engine is one I have wanted to add to the others so far made but have baulked so far because of the rather complicated crankcase shape. It will be the first time machining a front induction crankcase from solid has been attempted and though the machining will be similar to the inlet on the rear induction Super Tigre (correct spelling!) made previously the addition of webs and the front bearing housing will add complications – hopefully however with some careful thought and machining, along with a fair degree of fettling, the shape will evolve to give a reasonable rendition of the original casting

These two images give an idea of the task ahead - this is an earlier version of the Mk 3, and is marked on the case as having been tuned by one 'George Copeman' - note the small lightning bolt under the exhaust in the second pic





This is a Russian copy of a later Mk3 produced after the originals ceased production. Various copies - rather 'differing versions' of this engine have been produced in China, Russia, Australia and here in the UK such is it's popularity and one that remains to this day



The Mk 3 in its original production was made in six versions over the period 1953/4 to c 1967/8. You will see that the pillars that take the cylinder head bolts are extended. This is the version to be attempted.

The Oliver engine(s) were hand made and produced at first by John (A) Oliver in a home based workshop later to be joined by his son John (S) who carried on the business until his (John S's) retirement. It is a testament to the quality and performance that they did so in this fashion for some forty plus years. More or less from the start their engines were aimed at the competitor and were firmly targeted to the tethered model car racing world. Many successes in this genre were logged up both here in the UK and on the continent. Eventually a cross over into aeromodelling was made and specifically with the developing sport of control line team racing in mind. Quick and repeating successes in this area lead on to it being the engine of choice for control line combat and it had to some extent similar standing in FAI free flight power for a while too. This success turned this well loved mark of engines into near (if not full in some eyes) legendary status even if the waiting list to own one was a long six to twelve months. The history of the Olivers, both father and son and their many engines are superbly documented in a book by John Goodall – now out of print I believe but well worth sourcing a copy if you have the interest.



As a youngster an 'Olly Tiger' was talked about in such revered terms it was as if it were some kind of magic. I don't think that anyone I knew at that time had ever seen one - but we all knew about them from avid reading of the ‘Aeromodeller' and ‘Model Aircraft’ magazines. It would be years before I actually owned one – a Chinese made version however – and then got to use a real one (loaned by my good friend John L and the one in the first two images) in a VooDoo Team Racer.

What’s prompted this deviation from the Corliss? Well, I don't actually know. I've had a good break from machining on that but the thought of doing this engine – something that goes right back to making the ETA engines – just surfaced unexpectedly! I'm sure some will know how that happens!

A set of parts drawings have now been produced from this basic layout. (Some may note the glaring typo - Tigre instead of Tiger  :facepalm2:  Now duly corrected on the file  ::)




Like the Eta's and Racers they are twin ball raced which calls for some accurate machining to get the races aligned. The material is the usual 6082 (HE30) which is nice to machine without picking up on the tool. The blocks weigh near 600gms each so as usual it will be interesting to see how much is left.

Though the building of the second batch of Eta’s and the Atomatics were covered on here in some detail, the recently built Hunters were not. There has been some request to do so from members on the control line forum I visit, some who have since joined here. It is much easier to post and add images on this forum hence the decision to ‘do it all again' here - those of you who have witnessed it before will, I hope, be tolerant of the repeated coverage of methods used

So, on that note I guess it's time to make a start. As always the cases are first - no case, no project – and, as said, they are not going to be as easy as past ones. I’d like to make a pair so will start with three cases in case of any hiccups. This is not being posted retrospectively but will be covered as it is being done so if things do go totally pear shaped there’ll probably not be a second attempt. That said, and bearing in mind another old phrase, ‘nothing ventured, nothing gained ' I guess it really is time to get to grips with making some swarf.




Well, that's enough for an intro - the 'decks have been cleared' - just need to fire the old mill up and bring those blocks square :)

Back later - Tug


« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 10:47:23 PM by Ramon »
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
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Offline b.lindsey

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2019, 11:11:49 PM »
Nice project Ramon. I'll be along for the ride  :popcorn:

Bill

Offline steamer

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 12:13:38 AM »
Watching along.... :popcorn:
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Offline 10KPete

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2019, 12:28:03 AM »
I guess the big cats are a favorite for naming engines, and I suspect that  later mfgrs wanted to attract attention by having the name. I'm thinking of Thunder Tiger engines which were very big over here for a long time and, as far as I know, still are. I don't follow the aero engine stuff any more so I'm sure things have changed.

Count me along with the rest of the parade! 

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
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Retired, finally!
SB 10K lathe, Benchmaster mill. And stuff.

Offline bpudney

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2019, 04:00:08 AM »
A wonderful choice Ramon!!  As a teenager in the 50s and 60s several of my clubmates had Olivers....sadly I could never afford one!  As a fan, I would have to say that Olivers really are full legends!!
Looking forward to this, will you be putting the drawings up here??
Happy New Year
cheers
Bill

Offline Neil-Lickfold

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2019, 08:19:12 AM »
I look forward to the updates as they happen.
Neil

Online Jo

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2019, 08:35:19 AM »
 :thinking: That original crankcase looks die cast. It should be an interesting carving job

I guess the big cats are a favorite for naming engines, and I suspect that  later mfgrs wanted to attract attention by having the name.

Naming aeroplanes and aero-engines in the UK came from the Air Board Technical Department in 1918. Aeroplanes were named from the animal kingdom, while aero-engines were named independently by their makers. Even so a few British engine manufacturers had started naming their engines before the 1918 Air Ministry order: Rolls Royce for example had selected birds of prey, Cosmos engineering chose planets, ABC chose flying insects.

So it was only logical for the British model engine makers to follow full sized practise   ;)

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline Roger B

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2019, 08:40:32 AM »
That crankcase looks to be a challenge  :)  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I will be following along  :wine1:

A work colleague of mine used spark erosion on his Anzani crankcase.
Best regards

Roger

Online sco

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2019, 09:13:37 AM »
Great project Ramon - will be following along closely!

Simon.
Ars longa, vita brevis.

Offline Neil-Lickfold

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2019, 09:55:44 AM »
EDM is great if you have access to it, and the ability to make electrodes with the correct spark gap.

Offline Allen Smithee

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2019, 11:19:13 AM »
I used a pair of Copeman Ollie mk4s in CL combat in the early 70s - I managed to knock the whole cylinder assembly off one of them (his propnut hit squarely on the side of the fins and broke all four tiedown bolts out of the crankcase). I was a schoolkid and there was no way I could afford a replacement - these engines had been presents from doting grandparents. In desperation I sent the wreckage off to John with a highly optimistic note asking for a "repair" quote. A week later I received a brand new engine with a covering letter claiming he had found a defect in the crankcase casting and so was replacing it under the (long since expired) warranty. To this day I very much doubt any defect existed - it was John taking pity on a schoolkid. Of course a couple of years later along came richie wilkins and the shift to cheap glow motors and disposable airframes...

Anyway, in the late 80s I was flying RC and we got the craze for "funfighters" - 40" semiscale WW2 fighters for 0.19 engines and hand-launching, mostly from a range of kits by Cambria in south wales. Most people used the various .19-.25 glowmotors (HB/Veco, Enya, OS and later Irvine) and these models flew well but could be a bit iffy for solo hand-launching. I powered my Spit with a throttled Oliver Tiger Major - it was slightly lighter and more compact but mainly it turned a bigger prop (a 9-6 rather than an 8-6) which enabled it to climb away at 30degrees from even bad launches. It was a wonderful engine and it throttled better than most glows. Of course six months later we were putting HP40s in the funfighters, but that's another story.

Years later I bought an Irvine 20 diesel (which I still have) and this was very similar to the Ollie - easy to start, reliable and happy on big props. It was slightly more powerful (probably because it was Schneurle ported) and was also happy at higher revs. No one makes anything like this any more.

AS
Quidquid latine dictum sit altum sonatur

Offline Ramon

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2019, 10:57:18 PM »
Hi Guys - thanks for taking the time to comment - hope this will live up to expectations.

No pics tonight but I have made a start and the cases are all down to block size and the first is on the lathe for boring.

Pete (10K) - Their first engine had no feline connection but was named 'Battleaxe' but then came the Jaguar, Tiger, Tiger Cub and Tiger Major. Of course there's 'Super Tigre' and as you say 'Thunder Tiger' but they are manufacturers names as opposed to specific engine names. Thunder Tiger did a fairly reasonable rendition of the OS Max 35S glow at much lower cost but too but it wasn't 'quite the same' as the original

Bill (BP) - nice to see you looking in :) Though the drawings are done (well nearly - realised there's no backplate today  ::)) they are as yet unproved and do not have limits and tolerances marked. I will update and amend as necessary as the job goes and will put them up once finished.

Jo, I think the originals were sand cast at first and then die cast in later versions. All the original engines copied so far had die cast cases. As Roger notes, the curves and transition lines on these are going to be the real challenge to replicate.

AS - You mention two engines I really would have liked to have owned - The Major and that Irvine 20 diesel (really wished I'd bought one of those at the time ::)) Saw John Oliver at Old Warden flying a vintage R/C model with a Major in. A Ben Buckle larger Junior 60 if I remember right - the throttling characteristics were exactly as you say. Myself and a friend approached JO and were given a leaflet but both of us were put off by the long lead time involved - regrettable mistake :(

Spark erosion? well I wish  ::) No this will be plain old 'dremelling', needle files and emery I'm afraid. Nice thought though.

Back soon with an update - Tug



"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline Allen Smithee

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2019, 12:04:16 AM »
Sadly the Tiger Major is long gone - I was made an unrefusable offer for it by an american collector I got chatting to after the 1995 F3D world champs in Muncie (Indiana). He offered me $3,000 for it sight-unseen because he said he'd always wanted one, and when I didn't immediately say yes he up'd it to $5,000 (I'd only hesitated for a few seconds because I didn't think I'd heard hiom correctly!). I gave him contact details and assumed I'd never hear from him, but he said he regularly travelled to the UK and sure enough two months later I got a phone call saying he'd be in london the next week. We met up, I showed him he engine and he gave me $5,000 in 100s and 50s - We went straight to the bank and paid it in (because I wouldn't know a dud dollar bill if it hit me in the face). The cash was accepted and that was that. Probably the only time lady luck has smiled on me rather than vomit in my soup...

The irvine was notable because it was my first ever genuine "started first flick" engine. I bought it new from the old Addlestone shop, and when I got it home I stuck it straight into the test stand. I opened the main needle the prescribed 1-1/4 turns, closed the throttle to just cracked and choked it to pull the fuel up. I gave it a gentle flick to see what the compression was like and it started, sitting there purring like a well-oiled sewing machine. It was always like that - it never took more than a couple of flicks to get it started. I haven't ever stripped it to see what the differences are between it and a standard Irvine 20 glow, but I suspect it would be relatively easy to make a copy using a glowmotor as a donor for the crankcase, silencer and carb body. The carb barrel has a smaller choke (as you'd expect) but all the remaining parts should be straightforward enough. Of course the original is ABC (which might be tricky to copy) but I suppose you could do it with a steel liner and cast iron or ringed aluminium piston. Anyway, if you want to borrow it to take dimensions etc just shout - Jo will always know where to find me.

AS
Quidquid latine dictum sit altum sonatur

Offline Tennessee Whiskey

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2019, 01:10:11 AM »
Now if I was a drinker and a gambler 8) :lolb:, I’d bet a pint to a pence that when it’s running, old man Oliver would grin in approval. I’m going to love this one Tug

Cletus

Offline Ramon

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Re: The Oliver Tiger Mk III - a 5cc Version
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 10:31:21 PM »
Thanks for looking in Whiskey  :ThumbsUp: and nice as the offer on the Irvine is AS I'll decline this one - I'm trying to reduce the list as it is :-\

Well, after one or two unexpected but pleasant domestic distractions in the last few days I've finally managed to get into the machining  ::)

The blocks were reduced to the basic dimensions plus .5mm on each face and the centres of the two bores centre drilled


Before attacking the boring a plug gauge for the main bearing housing was turned along with a gauge for screw cutting the rear opening. The bearing plug gauge was made a careful .015mm down on size and the housing turned until that would just slide in. That gives a push fit for the bearing proper which will be tweaked if required on assembly for a good fit.


The blocks were set up to do the main bore first by the usual method of  using a 'wobble' bar. The paper under the block was there to enhance the grip.


After drilling, boring and reaming for the crankshaft main diameter (12mm) the bearing housing was turned as described and tested with the gauge. I do not have really accurate measuring kit for this op - doing it this way gets as close as possible without ending up with a loose housing - final fit is down to the fitting itself


Then the main bore was finished to size and screw cut for the back plate. This was done 'back to front' so that I could see when the tool reached the run out. (Tool is upside down)


With those ops out of the way the blocks were turned through 90 degrees and bored through for the cylinders.


With the four cylinder bolt holes drilled and tapped that finished off the preliminary machining ready to start milling the outer profiles


And this is where we are tonight after the first roughing ops on the front ends


Well that's a good start so far despite the interruptions. I'm hoping for another good day tomorrow.

That's it from the old shed tonight - hope that's of interest

Regards - Tug
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)