Author Topic: building the Frisco Standard Model  (Read 13350 times)

Offline Johnmcc69

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #180 on: May 03, 2019, 12:30:58 AM »
Great looking engine Craig & nice work!
 Looking forward to seeing & hearing this run.

 John

Offline Craig DeShong

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #181 on: May 09, 2019, 06:23:18 PM »
Not exactly working on the model, but we had some family fun at the spring train run this year.  We had a pretty weekend; only marred by the potential rain on Friday, but I wisely called the boiler inspector and asked if he preferred to inspect boilers on a sunny Thursday instead of a rainy Friday and he made arrangements.

Here you see Joe Scales, running his USRA Mikado.  Anyone on the east coast who is involved with live steam probably knows Joe and will agree with me that Joe is a unique character and a real likeable guy.




A photo of Ron and his (actually his wife Deb’s) Atlantic.



This was my grandson Owen’s first train run.  At 15 months everyone told me that when the whistles blew and the safetys lifted he would scream his head off and want no part of it.  They were wrong; it didn’t faze him a bit, but then he has a lot of railroading in his blood.  Here he is with my daughter, perched on grandad’s locomotive for the obligatory fist R/R picture.



Riding in the coach.  "Bye Mom and Dad; see you at the station".



My son in law Ben at the throttle of my consist with me riding behind.  The injectors can be a bit finicky and without a lot of experience they can be problematic so I usually ride along.  Just like the full size, you don’t want the boiler water to fall below the bottom of the water glass.



I gotta post one picture of yours truly at the controls.  I have to say that as I get older; spending a lot of time on this thing gets less and less appealing.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 06:42:43 PM by Craig DeShong »
Craig

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #182 on: May 09, 2019, 07:49:20 PM »

Hello Craig,

Great photo of Owen, lucky little guy.

Have a great day,
Thomas

Offline Craig DeShong

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #183 on: May 13, 2019, 07:30:23 PM »
Dave, Brian, Thomas, John; thanks for your comments.  Thanks also to those silently following along.

Progress continues with this model.  I have it together now where it should run.  I haven’t built the water tank, plumbed up the water, or built the water pump yet; but for short runs it ought to be ok without coolant.

I just ordered enough brass tubing to make the water tank and fuel tank, it should show up today.  Has anybody priced brass tubing lately… yikes :o- it was sticker shock.  I’m REALLY gonna be bummed if I can’t get this thing to run (yea, I shouldn’t tempt the gods by even mentioning it) :embarassed:.

I haven’t really tried to start it yet; I have verified that the valves are timed properly and I’ve discerned that the igniters are operating correctly so it ought to go.  The reason I haven’t tried to start it yet is that it has little no compression.  There are lots of opportunities for compression to leak out and when I turn the engine over I can hear the compression leaking away with a hiss around the head area.  I'll need to locate where this is and correct it before I can expect the model to run.  It might take a while so… meanwhile. I’ll tantalize y’all with a few current pictures. :mischief: 





« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 10:45:11 PM by Craig DeShong »
Craig

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #184 on: May 13, 2019, 08:16:46 PM »
Craig--That is indeed a thing of beauty. If you are trying to determine exactly where your compression is leaking, take the guts out of a sparkplug and braze a bit of tubing onto the exposed end to hook an airline to. At 15 to 20 psi, you will be able to isolate the leaking feature.

Offline Craig DeShong

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #185 on: May 13, 2019, 10:21:12 PM »
It's igniter ignition so no spark plug socket, but if push comes to shove I've thought of drilling in a threaded hole for a fake primer cup and then using that.
Craig

Offline Roger B

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #186 on: May 19, 2019, 07:51:07 AM »
Looks excellent  :praise2:  :praise2: I hope you find your compression leak and it is easy to fix. How are the ignitors fed? Through some sort of spark coil?

Is that a 7 1/4" railway system?
Best regards

Roger

Offline Craig DeShong

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #187 on: May 25, 2019, 01:29:22 AM »
Roger.  Our scale is 7 ½ inches.  7 ¼ is used in the mid Atlantic east coast I believe, 7 ½ is elsewhere.

Igniters are the predecessors to spark plug ignition.  With an igniter, you have two electrodes in the cylinder; a fixed-insulated electrode (insulated from the block) and a moveable electrode.  A mechanical mechanism is developed to move the electrodes together, and then draw them apart.  Electrically, a circuit is built with a battery, a “low tension” coil, and the “points” of the igniter all in series.  When the igniter “points” close, a circuit is completed and the coil builds an internal magnetic field.  When the igniter “points” are opened, the circuit is broken, the magnetic field in the coil collapses.  This results in a large voltage spike driven through the circuit and the voltage is high enough to arc across the “points” in the igniter as they open, thus firing the fuel/air mixture in the engine cylinder.  I’ve bought my coils from Bob Herder because his are the cheapest that I’ve found.  These appear to be made for some type of neon light fixture and with the numbers on the coil I probably could just get them from an electric supply house. 

Thanks for those of you following along.  The journey is turning out to be long and arduous.  I thought it was time for an update; if for no other reason than to let y’all know I haven’t given up on this model… yet.  I’m making slow progress.  One step forward and two back sometimes; but progress none the less. 

My compression issue has gone from NO compression to enough compression that I need to give the flywheel a spin by hand or my drill can’t take either cylinder over the compression stroke.  Resolving the specific lack-of-compression issue I accredit my good friend Gordon Miner.  He and his Dad have built dozens of these hit and miss models and his experience is a great asset to turn to when I run out of ideas. 

My compression issue turned out to be a leak between the insulator and the electrode on the igniters.  I’ve built three models with igniters and never had this problem, but these igniters were leaking.  I remade the insulator and the electrode both and the issue still wasn’t resolved.  Finally I smeared a bit of high temperature Permatex gasket sealer on the electrode shaft before installing it in the insulator; this fixed the problem. 

At this point the engine will intermittently fire; almost enough to sustain running.  I’ve noticed that all the valves open late and close early so probably fabricating the cams with a new profile would help.  I seem to be getting a little blow-back into the intake manifold from when the exhaust of the first cylinder closes early and the intake of the second cylinder opens late.  This might/does  :noidea: interrupt the fuel/air mixture to the second cylinder that fires at 180 degrees after the first cylinder and maybe prevents it getting a proper fuel /air mixture.  I’ve tried to set the valves so that this is minimized.

I’m really looking toward a carburetion/intake problem at this point as to why the engine won’t fire consistently.  Obviously there are still a few problems to work out before it’s a runner.

I'm going to need to address the water pump soon as the heads can get pretty warm, even without the engine running consistently.

A photo of the model to date with it's new, snazzy water tank with fuel tank atop.
 

« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 10:47:54 PM by Craig DeShong »
Craig

Offline Art K

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #188 on: May 25, 2019, 03:37:15 PM »
Craig,
Looks good, I have no doubts that you will sort out the problems and have it running like a top soon. :ThumbsUp:
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Craig DeShong

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #189 on: June 03, 2019, 10:13:10 PM »
I suspect every project can’t have a happy ending; at least that’s the case with this one.  I’ve fiddled and fooled with this thing for hours on end; my friend Gordon look at it- we spent an entire afternoon, to no avail.  It will fire intermittently, but not enough to come close to sustaining running.  It has compression, fire and fuel, all the timings appear to be correct.  I’m out of ideas and at a loss.

I’m very frustrated with it and have been using some language with it lately that I haven’t used since I retired; time to put it on the shelf for a ‘while’ and do something else.
Craig

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #190 on: June 03, 2019, 10:19:36 PM »
Craig--I feel your pain. It usually happens to me just after I start thinking that I am "The worlds leading authority" on model engines. Walk away from it for a while.---Brian

Online steamer

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #191 on: June 04, 2019, 01:52:43 AM »
Wow that's a great looking engine Craig! :praise2:

Dave
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Damned ijjit!

Offline TonyM

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #192 on: June 04, 2019, 07:15:47 AM »
One of the easiest ways to prove carburation is the problem is to fit a spice jar carb. You can run almost any engine on one of these.

Offline Craig DeShong

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #193 on: June 21, 2019, 02:08:37 PM »
At the time of my last posting I had taken some models to a show and come home with them needing a bit of attention.  I set the Frisco aside and addressed those repairs.  One of the tasks I was keen to do was a bit of re-work on my Otto-Langen atmospheric engine model, to prepare it so it runs well at the Rough and Tumble show at Kinzers. Pa. this year, which I plan on attending.  With all that behind me, I again addressed the Frisco.

I worked through a plethora of problems.  My procedure was to pull the igniter from one cylinder, thus eliminating the compression stroke on that cylinder and then striving to get the other cylinder running well; then repeat with the remaining cylinder. I was also using a carburetor off a glow-plug airplane engine that I still have from my RC days.

Most of the problems ended up being igniter problems; with the engine design it’s very easy to flood the engine and get a bubble of gas across the igniter contacts.  With this bubble of gas, the ohm meter would indicate the igniter “should” be operating properly but of course it wasn’t.

With both cylinders firing fairly well I re-attached the original intake manifold and mixer and am now managing to get fairly consistent runs.  The engine runs, but is very lethargic in its operation; this video is at full throttle.  It obviously needs some additional work, but it seems to run better the more I run it. 

Before I can go much further I need to build the water pump and get the coolant system operational, the engine heats up quickly without coolant water.

Who knows, maybe it will be a runner yet.


« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 07:04:04 PM by Craig DeShong »
Craig

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: building the Frisco Standard Model
« Reply #194 on: June 21, 2019, 02:35:22 PM »
Craig--that is a beautiful thing. So happy for you that you were able to get it running.---Brian