Author Topic: Quarry Bank Mill Engine  (Read 3630 times)

Offline Captain Jerry

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Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« on: December 16, 2018, 03:42:39 AM »
This is the engine that I will be trying to build here.  This is a "wall engine" or maybe a "ceiling engine" that is displayed in the Quarry Mill Museum.  I have never been there but the picture appearing in John's Textile Mill Diorama provided by member, deltatango, gives enough information to go by.  Stew Hart has also modeled this engine and provided plans that others have used to build from. Julius has also prepared detailed plans based of Stew's plans and they will also be referred to at times but these are all METRIC and that is difficult for me. I need to work in inches and pounds and hours and minutes and degrees so I will make my own set of plans in those terms.  Oh, wait, I guess I will have to use decimal inches rather than fractions but I will work in Imperial Time Units.


i get as much fun from the design process as I do from the build anyway so mostly what I need is a few starting dimension and the rest of the design has to follow.  Tools and available material plays a big part.  For cylinders, I like brass or cast iron and If I use brass, the cylinder will probably be about 1 inch diameter and less than 2 inches long.  I want to use aluminum as much as possible for the stationary parts and if I can't get ahold of a big enough piece of aluminum for the engine block, I will build it up from bar or plate.


I also enjoy trying to get in the head of the original designer as much as possible and try to understand the the conditions and limitations that he had to work with.  For example, this engine needed to be compact due to the limits of space. It was intended to hang on a wall or from overhead beams.  Not only did it not get its own building as did many steam engines, it didn't even get it's own floor space.  i also suspect that the reason for the twin cylinders was to provide smooth, high speed without needing a large flywheel.


The overcrank provides a very compact engine with the crankshaft in the center of the plan and the overall length is mostly within the diameter of the flywheel.  So why the angled mounting of the valve chest on top of the cylinders.  Again, I suspect that the reason is space. The valves are mounted on top of the cylinders to keep the engine as narrow as possible. By placing the valves in the same chest, piping is simplified and so is control. Steam pressure is controlled for both cylinders with a single governor. 


The angle of the valve chest is to keep the valve rods axis in line with crankshaft. Any other arrangement would need some kind of crank lever mechanism to have equal valve motion. But why a 15 degree angle?  Why not 23 degrees or 12 degrees? Again it might be space. A shallower angle like 10 degrees would require that the crankshaft be further from the cylinder block while a steeper angle like 20 degrees would move the crankshaft and the cylinders closer together.  That, however could cause interference between the cranks and the cylinder rod end. And it is easier to manufacture to a common angle than to something like a 23 degree slope, so 15 degrees.


All the rest of it just follows from those basic parameters.  I use Alibre' because it is what I have.  I have used it for so long that I don't have to think about it.  I have a free license that is more than 10 years old and I can't upgrade without buying a new PC so that is what it is.  The only problem is that I have used it for so long that I am about out of disk space.  I'm going to have to find some way to offload a bunch of older design files and photographs of engines, kids, boats, and horses, and dogs.  I also need to relearn all of the procedures for uploading designs, photos, and videos to the forum.  I seem to have forgotten a lot of that.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 03:51:54 AM by Captain Jerry »
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2018, 04:03:07 AM »
And here is where I am in the design process.



« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 04:08:57 AM by Captain Jerry »
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Offline deltatango

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2018, 05:44:21 AM »
Hi Captain Jerry,
Here is a more detailed picture of the little engine at Quarry Bank Mill that I didn't put in the earlier post:



Hope this helps!

Regards, David

Online 10KPete

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2018, 05:55:28 AM »
Most interesting! A Fenner Power Twist 'tween the 'gin and shaft! And a Browning pulley on the gin.....

Beautiful machine.. :Love:

Pete
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2018, 07:26:28 AM »

The angle of the valve chest is to keep the valve rods axis in line with crankshaft. Any other arrangement would need some kind of crank lever mechanism to have equal valve motion. But why a 15 degree angle?  Why not 23 degrees or 12 degrees? Again it might be space. A shallower angle like 10 degrees would require that the crankshaft be further from the cylinder block while a steeper angle like 20 degrees would move the crankshaft and the cylinders closer together.  That, however could cause interference between the cranks and the cylinder rod end. And it is easier to manufacture to a common angle than to something like a 23 degree slope, so 15 degrees.



When I first drew this engine up the 15 degree angle was just a guess as I couldn't get direct access to the original to measure it up despite asking Quarry Bank if I could, I just couldn't get it through to them what I wanted to do  :cussing:  :- 15 degrees looked about right and it fitted in nicely with the rest of the geometry.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the way

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2018, 02:18:03 PM »
Thanks to all of my old friends who have welcomed me back to this group. It feels good to do something creative and it is even better to have a group of people like you who are so willing to share your skills and experience. I beginning to get more comfortable in the shop but I still have a few things to remember, like wear overalls in the shop and leave them in the shop, brush your hair and wipe your feet well before coming in the house, find other things to talk about at the dinner table.


David: The better photo that you posted is very helpful. The sharper image makes it easier to work out some of the detail but as usual, more information means more questions which I will ask when I get to them. Thanks. If you have a wider shot that shows home the engine is mounted I would be interested.


Stew:  Thanks for looking in.  I am sure that everyone looks to you as the expert on modeling this engine. I have a hot key on my computer that takes me to your Madmodder build and I go there frequently.  I am going to move as quickly as I can with this project for many reasons and I want to finish it within a year. I will try to post updates as often as I can so if you see me headed down a dead end, I would welcome a "heads up."

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Offline Gas_mantle

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2018, 05:06:07 PM »
Jerry, I look forward to seeing how your build goes.

I've always liked the unusual style of this engine and did consider making one after I finished Stews' Potty Grasshopper, when I later studied the plans I thought it was a bit beyond my capability but it is still on my to do list.

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Offline deltatango

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2018, 10:12:38 PM »
Sorry Jerry, I only took the two pictures of the overcrank engine. I may be in the area again Sept/Oct next year and can visit QBM and take lots more but:
a) this isn't certain and
b) you'll have the engine finished by then anyway  :)

David

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2018, 04:09:20 AM »
David: Don't make the trip just for me.  But if you find yourself in the area....  I was only curious about the mounting. It won't change how I do anything.  Some of the detail that I have discovered examining your photo are more interesting.  The black paint makes it difficult to pick out but there seems to be some kind of spigot on the top of each cylinder, plugged with a square headed bolt.  Some kind of drain or bleed I guess.  By "top" I mean the side facing us.

I also notice that on top of the inlet valve it looks like some kind of hose barb.  Do you think it might have ever run on air or is that some kind of British steam fitting that I'm not familiar with.

Jerry
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 08:06:21 AM »
One of Stew's photos shows what looks to be a steel braided hose attached probably with a quick connector, as to whether it has steam or air I can't say. There is a small handwheel on the vertical shaft coming out of the top of the valve presumably to control flow into the valve chest.

Possible air run for demos in the mill as there may no longer be a steam supply plus it saves a lot of red tape.

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 09:04:45 AM »
One of Stew's photos shows what looks to be a steel braided hose attached probably with a quick connector, as to whether it has steam or air I can't say. There is a small handwheel on the vertical shaft coming out of the top of the valve presumably to control flow into the valve chest.

Possible air run for demos in the mill as there may no longer be a steam supply plus it saves a lot of red tape.

We're about 45 minutes from Quarry bank and visit quite regularly for a walk around the woods to the Manchester airport viewing area, my wife loves watching planes taking off and landing. The museum has a good cafe that do excellent cakes and I take the opportunity to view their other engines running on steam, but they run over crank on air probably because the boiler is some distance away from it.  By the way this type of engine is also known as a "Return Crank.

Cheers
Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the way

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2018, 10:26:59 PM »
I thought air for demo display might be the case. I have never seen the inside of a steam driven mill.  In the Carolinas, where I used to live, there were all sorts of mills, sawmills. furniture mills, and textile mills. There are even a few foundries.  I was in most of them but seldom got past the purchasing offices.  Sometimes I got to the tool rooms.  My employer manufactured power tools that were sold to the mills through local mill supply houses so I was there mostly to promote brand recognition.


I am beginning to understand that these small engines were ceiling or wall mounted to be close to the line shaft that they drove.  But what was under them?  Was there a drip pan for oil? Where did the exhaust go?
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2018, 07:13:32 AM »
It's worth noting that Stew saw this engine in a separate workshop so it may have been a long way from the main boiler that powered the mill engines and their shafting. Quite possibly had a smaller boiler for the workshop which has not been restored if it even exists hence the use of air.

Exhaust may have gone back to a blast pipe to help the chimney draw or could simply have gone out the nearest wall, can't see them using a condenser or oil separator on it.

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Shop Engine
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 02:43:06 PM »
I have just been looking at the engine and not fully understanding it's use.  Of course it is not a "mill" engine as I usually think of mill engines. It doesn't have enough power to drive the textile machinery.  It is used to power the tools in the workshop.   Looking at the pictures, it is clear that Stew's photo is from the opposite side as David's but still the same site. b


Not to be picky but the valve doesn't look right.  It is on top of the engine where it would be difficult to reach.  I think that valve was put on the engine sometime after it's life in the mill shop.  I think Stew's valve is a much better representation of the original arrangement. So why a governor on a small shop engine?  Because any steam engine really needs a governor.  We shouldn't just think of a governor as a speed control when it is really a power control. How does your mill react when you take a big bite with a roughing end mill? It depends on the built in electronic speed controller to goose up the power just as a governor on a shop engine needs to goose up the power when the table saw rips into a 4" beam.


Stew's nice little governor fits the bill nicely.  Nicely designed and positioned so that it is effective whether the engine is wass mounted or displayed flat.  I may not get to the governor but I will put a drive pulley on the shaft, just in case.


In light of all this, I am changing the title of this thread.
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Online crueby

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2018, 03:11:53 PM »
For those that have been there - do you know what the big handwheel on top of a (I assume) a valve is down at waist height to the left of the engine? Could that have been the original steam supply valve to the engine, before it was switched to air? Seems quite large...   :shrug:

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2018, 08:42:58 PM »
These small steam engines were used as you would an electric motor today to power all sort of machinery, my model horizontal mill engine that a few of you have built is actually based on a small mill rite's engine that's on display at the Northern mill engine societies museum at Bolton thia engine would sit on top of your desk they would move it about to wherever they needed power such as the re-boring of a large mill engines cylinders.

Any way these are all my old photographs i took of the over crank including some of the machinery it was powering.

I don't believe the engine was originally at Quarry Bank I suppose they found it some ware and decided  it would make a good display for the museum.

















Stew




« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 08:48:50 PM by sbwhart »
A little bit of clearance never got in the way

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2018, 12:56:15 AM »
I sorted out how to assemble the block from aluminum bar stock but my regular camera was dead and the only camera I had was my phone.  I got a few shots of the results but I have never uploaded to the forum from my phone so this is sort of a test.  I was able to upload as an attachment but I was not able to imbed it in the text. That's something I will have to work out.

In the photo, it looks a little strange.  The loose aluminum block on top will be joined to the rest of the assembly and will be milled to the angle required for the valve chest. I have left it loose to make it easier to route the steam passages (I think) without having to plug holes later. Those details are being worked out now. 


The lower block looks like a single piece but it is assembled from four pieces of 1/2" thick aluminum bar that will be glued with steel filled two part epoxy (JB Weld).  I have had both good and bad experience with this product.  I think you should buy a fresh supply for a critical application like this.  Don't use the half used tubes that have been in the drawer for 6 months, and be sure to mix it thoroughly. I may reinforce the assembly with screws but if I do I will wait until the epoxy has cured for a couple of days and I will use brass screws just incase I drill into one as I go further.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 01:57:08 PM by Captain Jerry »
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Offline deltatango

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2018, 03:49:14 AM »
Hi Chris,
I don't think that the very large valve you asked about is anything to do with the display of a millwright's workshop, it's bigger than the engine and outside the display area. I can't remember anything about it from my visit.

David

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2018, 08:11:06 PM »
Hi Stew:


Thanks for the additional pictures.  The second picture has made me realize that I had the proportions all wrong.  I have the cylinders too far apart.  Not sure why but it may have to do with a wrong starting point in my planning, but it seems that the cylinders should be closer by 3/4 of an inch.  My error would have been more apparent if I had started my planning with the crankshaft.  My present spacing puts way to much unnecessary spacing.


I am going to attempt a heroic save of the cylinder block above.  These things seldom work out well so I am prepared to scrap this and start over.


Jerry

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Online Tennessee Whiskey

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2018, 08:24:22 PM »
Iíll catch up on the build later, but, for now Iíd just like to welcome you back to port Captain  8). I hoped you hadnít been lost at sea. You have any equine stock now? Iíll be following along on this voyage for sure.

ATB,
Whiskey

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2018, 11:24:33 PM »
Hi Whiskey.  Thanks for the shout.  Trying to get back into the swing of things. My animal buddies are just a couple of dogs these days.  All the horses have been moved out to my daughter's training center where there is a lot more space and help to take care of them.  I lost a coupe of my dog buddies this year.  One of them had been suffering from spinal problems from the day we found him.  Not sure if it was a birth defect but I suspect it was from abuse and neglect,  He had good days and bad and one morning he didn't show up for breakfast.  I found him where he had dragged himself under the bushes behind his house. Live but tired of living, his back legs completely paralyzed. I spent the day with him but the next day we had to help him leave.  His sister had been suffering for several years with general poor health.  After her brother died she gave up too.  She would not eat and then she would not get out of her bed in the barn.  Within a few weeks, she was gone too.


I think I have one more project in me so drop in when you ge a chance.  I've got a lot of reading to catch up on too,


Jerry
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Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2018, 01:29:25 AM »
It is rough to say good by to your friends, but at least you can rest easy knowing that you  gave them the best life that you could.
Sorry to hear Jerry, its never easy.

Dave

Offline steamer

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2018, 02:33:58 AM »
Ahh man   sorry to hear that Jerry, it's never easy letting them go.

Dave
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2018, 02:45:39 AM »
As I expected, my heroic effort to save the cylinder body fabrication failed so it is a do over.  I was prepared for it and it gave me a chance to get a couple of "i know better than that" mistakes out of the way. It also gave me a chance to devise a new or different way to preserve a center position.  Twice, in my earlier effort I meant to reach for the drawbar wrench to change tools and instead, grabbed the vise wrench and loosened the vise.  An old man working on auto pilot or hurrying to much. I lost the center for the cylinder bore and it had been a long process to find it the first time. My solution is to center drill a location that is a known distance along the Y axis from the cylinder center.  I can take the part out of the vise and put it back and then locate the drilled position then shift right or left along the Y to find my location.  I am using boring head in the mill to bore for the add on cylinder.  I chose the location for my witness mark to .495" from the actual center soit will be removed by the counterbore for the cylinder flange.  I think that will be shown in one of the picture att

Oops, battery failing. I will finish this post when I find my charger cord.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 02:25:17 PM by Captain Jerry »
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2019, 05:27:56 PM »

I hope everyone enjoyed the holidays.  Lots of family time, not much shop time but now back at it.  I am slowly remembering things that I thought I new.  For example, converting someone else's metric plans to imperial is more than just converting mm > in.  Once you change a critical dimension to standard sizes and eliminate rounding, everything else is up for grabs, and if you also make a change to allow for available material, you might as well start from scratch.


The holidays did allow me some late night design time after everyone else was in bed so I have come up with this as a model within the range of my equipment and experience. I still need to design some of the finer details but this is a working video is what I am going back to the shop with.   


I am aware that the valve timing on the right hand cylinder is out of sync but that is easier to adjust in the shop than it is on the computer.

The valve cover is slid off so I can check the action.


« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 12:47:28 PM by Captain Jerry »
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2019, 04:14:13 AM »
Progress report:


I am making headway on this project but my reporting efforts have been poor.  Partly because I seem to have difficulty sticking to a plan of action, and partly because I have not yet been able to work out a simple method of inserting pictures within the text so I am stuck with using attachments which make it difficult to follow.  Another problem is that this computer, which has more disk storage space than I ever thought I could use is now full of thousands of family photos, CAD files,and other things that I can not bring myself to delete So I am battling a serious problem with creating new designs and processing photographs.


But stick with me if you can. I will get better, I hope.  The first attached picture is the condition of the cylinder assemble as of now.  It is mostly assembled from aluminum bar, which I had on hand.  The cylinders are from cast iron bar.  This will be filled and painted to hide seams and joints so that I can pass it off as if from a single casting. 


The second attachment shows the valve cover removed (no bolts yet) and the valve bodies can be seen.  When they are removed as in the third attachment, you can see that the work against a brass valve plate that is set into the aluminum base.


If you look carefully, you will see that I am still able to create hockey sticks in the valve plate, and If you look closer you can see the top of a broken tap that had to be ground flush.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 04:21:47 AM by Captain Jerry »
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2019, 04:41:00 AM »
These next three photos will show how the valve base and porting are put together.   Beneath the valve plate, holes are drilled through the valve base and with the valve base lifted, you can see that these holes intersect milled channels in the top surface of the main block.  These channels are connected to vertical holes that intersect with the surface of the cast iron cylinder, just behind the flange.  The final part of this is a slot that is milled into the cylinder and then a final hole drilled through the slot into the vertical hole.  If this works as planned there will be no plugged holes and all of the passages are internal.  The exhaust ports combine and connect to a straight hole through the valve base, the top plate of the main block and exit into the large open section between the cylinders.


At present, all of the aluminum plates are screwed together.  I plan to bond them permanently with JB Weld but I may wait until I can do an operational test before making the permanent commitment.




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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2019, 07:04:32 AM »
Good progress Jerry interesting that you are using ally I made mine from brass but ally held together with screws/JB weld will be just as good.

To stop making hockey stick ends in slots simply drill a hole just a tad larger than the slot this will stop the cutter pulling into the corner and the size difference won't matter a jot.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the way

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2019, 10:45:56 PM »

Stew


Thanks for the comments. I may take some different approaches to the development of this model because of my limited equipment and experience.  And also I doubt that i could actually produce parts to specification so I have to make adjustments. And sometimes I let my mistakes lead the way.

There are two big differences between brass and ally for this job. One is dollars and the other is that i have ally.  Paint will make it work.  I have some bronze on hand that i thought might work for the heads but I don't like the color much; particularly when brass will be used for piping and valves.


I have at last worked out a method of getting my photos imbedded so my next progress report may be easier to follow.


Jerry




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Offline steamer

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2019, 10:54:08 PM »
Following along Jerry!   keep it coming!

Dave
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Damned ijjit!

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2019, 01:36:13 AM »
More progress to report.  I have decided that bronze or cast iron are wrong for this project. The color just doesn't work out, no mater what paint color I choose so brass has been ordered and will be here this week. 



I have been dreading having to make the side thrust plates. Stew makes it sound easy but the little voice in the back of my head says otherwise.  I understand the idea of pinning or bolting the plates together and doing the milling as a single job.  The thought of milling a 3/4" wide slot in steel is what shakes me.  I have a good 3/4" drill bit for the first operation but I don't have a 3/4" slot drill or two flute end mill.  I do have a goof 1/2" 2 flute end mill but I doubt that it would live through the job.


For one thing, my mill is just barely adequate for the job in terms of rigidity.  It would leave me with a big filing job and a dulled endmill. The 1/2" wide slot might be adequate but could wind up looking aa little bit skimpy.  The slot only has to be wide enough to pass the crank arms and they will be 1/2" on my version.  I have played around with the dimensions in Alibre' and I think I would like the slots to be 5/8" wide in a 7/8" plate.   Again, no 5/8" slot mill.  A thought came to me in the night and I am anxious to try it. 


Off to the store for flat steel plate.  No problem finding 1/8" thick steel plate.  Flat is another question.  It seems that 1/8" steel in narrow widths is made by shearing or stamping from a larger plate which leave s the steel in a deformed condition.  The edges are thicker than middle and the plate is cupped on one side and curved on the other.  And the edges have been nicely rounded so customers don't hurt themselves.  But it is cheap and available.  I bought a 36" long piece labeled as 1/8" x 1 1/4" for about $4 so today was spent getting it flat and square.


My go to tool for this kind of job is a flycutter equipped with a 1/4" lathe bit with a carbide chip.  The bits are cheap. The edge lasts a long time.  And I can sharpen it with a diamond disc by eye.  Single edge tools are my friend.




flat steel 03 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


The first job was to hack of 4 pieces about 6" long.  Them stack them on edge in the mill vise and take of about 1/8 " of plate width.  I could comfortably take .010" at a time.  I did try .020" one time but the impact was  making my teeth hurt so I went with cuts of .010".  A lot of passes.


Then I flipped the bunch over and did the same thing to the other edges.  I did need to do some deburring of each piece befor putting the stack back together in the vice.  That got the edges nice and square so now I had to deal with the cupped and rounded faces.


One at a time, I put each piece in the vise, with the cupped face down and took a single pass at .005" from the rounded face.  The cut covered the full face, all the way to the edges.  Then, one at a time, I put the new flat face down in the vise and took a single .005" pass over the cupped face.  Again, this single pass cut across the full face, from edge to edge.




flat steel 02 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


All I need to do now is deburr the edges and clean up the shop.  Tomorrow I will test my idea for milling the slots.  If you don't hear from me, I will be working on a new idea.


Jerry
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 01:39:55 AM by Captain Jerry »
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2019, 10:15:38 PM »
Ok, I got side plates.  All bolted together, I took one more skim to be sure the edges were flat and parallel.


Side Plate l0002 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


Then I set them in the vise face up, located the centerline and spot drilled for the two ends of the slot, the con rod pivot and the connecting bars'


Side Plate l0004 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


The I drilled two 5/8" holes that form the ends of the slot.  My little HF mill could not handle the 5/8" bit so I had to progress through 3/8, 1/2 and then the 5/8".  Now comes the big idea that would make the job easy.


Side Plate l0005 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr 


Side Plate l0008 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


 That doesn't show it very well, but that is a boring bit in a boring head.  The single cutting edge avoids the problem of the cutter being pushed to the side at the end of the slot and is adjustable.  The results look good so far but that is after about a dozen passes.  I could only get about .010" D.O.C. before the mill complained.   I needed another idea.  I have a bunch of 3/8" end mills that I could sacrifice for the job that have dulled edges on the end but the sides of the flutes are in good shape so I replaced the boring head with a 3/8" endmill, and cutting full depth, plowed through the center of the slot.  The cut was not difficult.  It took a little feel with the feed rate to keep the bit cutting but not to fast or tthe mill would stall and I would have to back up.  For some reason, I didnt get a foto of this operation.


In any case, I went back to the boring head for the final passes. With the center of the slot opened up, I had no problem finishing up the slot in four more passes and the a few more passes with the diameter increased a few thousandths.  I am reasonably pleased with the results.


Side Plate l0010 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr




Just one note on the bit.  The stock bits are really not ground right for a hole this small.  There is not enough face angle? to get a good cut.  The bit can be rotated in the head by just a few degrees to increase the angle but then there is not enough relief behind the cutting edge so you get a lot of bumping as the heel drags in the cut.  So over to my little Unimat SL equipped with a diamond grit wheel and grind away behind the cutting edge for relief.  A little relief on the bottom edge helps too.


Tomorrow,  I will mill the tail ends of the side plates that slide in the guides and think about how to shape the outer contours.


Jerry
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 01:09:58 AM by Captain Jerry »
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2019, 11:24:09 PM »
I wasn't really complaining, more like bitching, but if you see me struggling like I was with the mill for the last few days, remember, I haven't touched a machine tool for over two years.  You can throw in a little bit of basic help or remind me of things we know but forgot, like "make sure everything is tight."  This morning I spent giving the mill a little TLC; adjusted the gibs, tightened up the backlash, aligned the DROs (cheap Igaging stuff), squared the vise.  I even repacked the spindle bearings on the Unimat SL.   The mill was a pleasure to use today.  No pics, but just saying. help is always appreciated. So are reminders.


Jerry
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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2019, 11:33:40 PM »
I am making progress at a blinding pace.  You may hear it said that you are never to old to do something but I recommend that you take that with a rain of salt.  I had to slow down a bit and get a little better organized.  I seems that some things are not where I left them and somethings are not there at all.  On top of that, two of my local suppliers have closed up shop so Most everything has to be ordered in.  At the moment things are on hold as I wait for delivery of a set of adjustable taps from Fantasy Tools in Faraway, Minnesota but the Post Office is taking a Bad Weather day so it may be a while so as I wait, I am getting to know more about Kentucky Rye Whiskey as done by Woodford Reserve.
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2019, 03:23:30 AM »



Conrod l0005 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


I really have been working on this project but have not been very good at showing the results.  I did complete the side thrust plates without  incident by following Stew's work plan as much as possible.  I also made the crank arms but will not complete the crankshaft until I make the eccentrics and the bearing stands.

The next major undertaking has been the connecting rods and they have presented some unusual challenges.  I looked at Stew's version and at the version built by Lesmo and detailed in his very thorough build as well as looking at the plans published by Julius but I have decided to take a more simple approach that is a little more like the original in its use of split bearing blocks for both ends.  I am not sure what this type of bearing is called but it is just two brass plates are held between the plain end of the rod and a retainer plate on the outer end. 

In the original there is a "big end" and a "small end" but on my version both ends are the same.  My method of creating the rod section is one that has been kicking around in my head for years but never built.  It actually starts out as a "connecting rod" but is normally used to connect two large timbers.  It is actually a 60d spike.  The shank is .375" diameter and is 10" long with a head formed on one end and a diamond point on the other.  When the head and point are removed there is a nice bright mild steel rod that machines like butter.  The the two ends which form Ts are made from the same spike and fitted and pinned to a tenon turned on the main shank.  I tried several methods of fitting the ends to the shank which failed badly before working out he pinned tenon design.  I tried a threaded tenon and also a screw through the end plate into the shank but neither were satisfactory in terms of fit or strength.

After the ends are fitted, the assembly is milled flat on both sides, resulting in a 1/4" thick finished connecting rod.  The bearing plates will be fastened with proper studs and nuts.

I am going to post this now and provide more detail tomorrow if you are interested.  Its getting late and my battery is running low.

Jerry
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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2019, 01:00:41 PM »
Continued from above.

Conrod l0001 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

These are the end plates, ready for milling.

Conrod l0002 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

Here they are milled flat to .200" thick.  They have been drilled and tapped for the studs.

Conrod l0003 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

And here being pinned to the shank.

Conrod l0004 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

And here the shank with end plates milled to .25" thick.

Jerry
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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2019, 01:01:53 PM »
Great work - watching along!

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2019, 01:54:23 AM »


Hi, Chris,  glad to see you are watching.  I'm not sure how much interest there is because my posting has been very erratic.


I begin work on the bearing stands.  For this part I will follow the design of the original which uses stands that are seperate from the stand that holds the slide bearings blocks for the side plates.  One reason is because it better sits the material that I have on hand.  Stew Hart's design combines these two items and that may be an excellent design but I am trying to avoid buying material where possible.


I will also follow the original design to the extent that the bearing retainer split is at an angle (I estimate 30 deg) from horizontal.  I have seen this style on other engines, both steam and IC, and there may be a name for it.  I have my opinion as to why it was done that way but other opinions would be welcome.  I am thinking that it has something to do with making it easier to service the bearings or to remove/replace the shaft.

Here is my start.  Marked out and with two 1/4" holes to ease the transition between base and riser.  The small pip above them is the location of the shaft center.

BearingStand l0001 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

My markup fluid is just MagicMarker which I seem to remember seeing a question on another thread about its permanence and finger stains. I avoid these problems by giving the part a quick 2 or 3 second pass with a small butane torch to flash off the solvent. No more red fingers.

Here are three bearing stands, marked and drilled, ready for the next step.

BearingStand l0002 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

The notches on the top edge are because this material came from the scrap box and they will not interfere with the finished profile.  I will finish the profile tomorrow and hopefully show finished parts tomorrow evening

Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2019, 01:59:03 AM »
I figured the angle was so that the primary pressure back on the bearings was not directly on the split in them, but that is just a guess.
 :popcorn:

Offline MJM460

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2019, 06:37:17 AM »
Hi Captain,

I am watching too.  A very interesting engine layout and always interesting to see how others set things up.



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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2019, 07:51:23 AM »
I'm following you

To add to the debate about the bearing stand

"I will also follow the original design to the extent that the bearing retainer split is at an angle (I estimate 30 deg) from horizontal.  I have seen this style on other engines, both steam and IC, and there may be a name for it.  I have my opinion as to why it was done that way but other opinions would be welcome.  I am thinking that it has something to do with making it easier to service the bearings or to remove/replace the shaft."

I drew it up level just to simplify things:- they mounted them at an angle so the the split line would not take the the thrust from the crank shaft as this would accelerate the wear rate, hope this makes sense.

Stew
 
A little bit of clearance never got in the way

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2019, 02:14:27 AM »
I think that you are right, Chris and Stew, about not working directly against the bearing split by slanting the mounting stand.  I had a thought that if it were every necessary to remove the crankshaft while the engine is mounted on the wall, with the slanted arrangement it would be possible to remove all of the bearing caps without having the crankshaft fall out.  Make it easier to put it back too.


Your horizontal design does simplify the fabrication and taking it a step further and combining the bearing stand with the support bracket is also  good idea. That seems like something the original design could have benefitted from.


Putting a slant on things made it useful to make a wedge triangle for support.  I should have done it a long time ago.  I should also make a 45 deg one as well.


finished stand l0004 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


It makes setting up for milling the 30 and 60 degree faces on the stands.


finished stand l0006 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


finished stand l0007 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


finished stand l0008 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


My plan had been to profile the bearing cap along with the stand and then saw them apart before drilling for the bearing.  All I can say is that if you ever find yourself milling to a line, be sure that you know which line is your target.  I didn't so I had to take the top off of all of the stands and super glue a top in place.  That may have been a better plan anyway.  This shot is sawing a 3/8" square of another piece of scrap to make the tops.


finished stand l0009 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


You might take a look at my one tooth slitting saw blade that I made from a 48 tooth one,  The fine tooth version was not very effective at clearing the chips it made and was forever binding in the cut.  I ground away most of the teeth and increased the depth of the gullets.  I had intended to make an eight tooth version but since I was working freehand, it seems that only one or maybe two teeth actually cut.  No problem. the other teeth help clear the chips.  It is a very fine kerf and on aluminum it does very occasionally bind in the cut but the finish is very smooth.


Tops fitted, superglued and screwed down before locating and drilling for the bearing.


finished stand l0010 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


All three stands, rather roughly shaped and with caps fitted and screwed on.


finished stand l0011 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


Its getting late but I couldn't help setting up a few family shots to see if it was going in the right direction,


finished stand l0012 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr




finished stand l0012 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


finished stand l0014 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


finished stand l0015 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


I am beginning to think that this excersize might actually produce a real engine.


Jerry





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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2019, 02:30:47 AM »
Thats all looking great, going to be a grand engine.


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2019, 01:15:48 AM »
Todays efforts resulted in a better locking bearing stand. This is how I had designed it in Alibre' but you don't have to worry about how to hold the part for final profiling and fillet blending.  I only got one done but the other two will be easier.


fettled standl0003 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


Jerry


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Offline steamer

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2019, 01:49:29 AM »
That looks the part Jerry!....That looks tricky, but I can think of a couple of cunning schemes to hold it....

Did you ream the hole?

Dave
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2019, 12:18:25 PM »


Dave


I should have thought to get some pictures but at the time, I was too absorbed by the problem and too aware of the consequence of failure to pick up a camera.  The hole has not been reamed and was used help in holding.  One of the concerns was keeping the cap registry while the sides we milled to thickness.  The bolts are not enough and I don't trust superglue under the impact of milling so I clamped down on a slug of 3/8" rod.  The rod was also used as a pivot to get the top radius. The bore will have brass or bronze bushings which will be reamed in place.


Jerry


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Offline steamer

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2019, 12:23:20 PM »


Dave


I should have thought to get some pictures but at the time, I was too absorbed by the problem and too aware of the consequence of failure to pick up a camera.  The hole has not been reamed and was used help in holding.  One of the concerns was keeping the cap registry while the sides we milled to thickness.  The bolts are not enough and I don't trust superglue under the impact of milling so I clamped down on a slug of 3/8" rod.  The rod was also used as a pivot to get the top radius. The bore will have brass or bronze bushings which will be reamed in place.


Jerry

Sounds good Jerry!    Yeah I get the "pucker moment can't take a picture right now ....glad I'm not the only one.     It's coming along great!

Dave
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2019, 01:28:52 AM »
More to report.  I have been putting in some time to get this going and I have been following the mantra of my uncle Ralph who often said "measure if you have to, keep cutting till it fits, and don't be afraid to start over."  Uncle Ralph was a perfectionist of a different order.  He had a reputation as the best Rolls Royce mechanic  between NYC and Miami and had a customer following in the 1920's during the seasonal north/south migration of wealthy owners.


He chewed tobacco but also had his tongue in his cheek most of the time. I try to be a little more careful and have not had many do-overs but I have modified the design a few times to more closely match my work.  I haven't posted much, partly because my couch time is mostly taken up following the really great works in progress and partly because what I have been doing is pretty commonplace milling aluminum bar stock.  I did get into the brass recently but nothing out of the ordinary. 


Yesterday, I did get into something a little bit different so I thought I would post some pictures.  There is not very much different that you can do with eccentric followers but I will try.  These will be cut on the bias, a 30 deg slant, unlike the original that uses a typical 90 deg dividing line.  There are two practical reasons for this.


The first reason is because the location of the valves, that angle down to the crankshaft, the bottom stud or bolt is difficult to see or reach,  Using the bias cut design makes both of the studs point up at a 15 deg angle for easy service and assembly.


The second reason is that it is common to provide an oil hole in the follower and that can be done much more easily with no interference with the top joint and the oil hold is functional, whether the engine is mounted level or vertical. There is slightly less waste material as well.


I'm going to post this now and return with pictures in 30 min
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2019, 02:41:58 AM »
It didn't take 30 mins. but the dogs came over with an urgent plea to be let out and I hate to leave an unfinished post open,


The first step is to get a piece of 1/8" brass,  1" x 1.5" centered up.  I drilled a small hole which will be used as a positioning aid later:


EccFollowerl0001 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

Then three corners are nibbed out which could be done with an end mill but since I'm going to be using a slitting saw soon to split the blank, I decided to use it for this as well.  Also quieter and less swarf with the saw.

EccFollowerl0009 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

EccFollowerl0009 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

The fourth corner is cut at an angle, also using the saw.  This will provide a face for the arm.

EccFollowerl0010 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

EccFollowerl0011 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

Look carefully at his picture,  It is a 7/32" hole, drilled in the edge of a 1/8" plate.  The drill bit that I used is a bit of an odd-ball design by Dewalt.  It has a small pilot tip followed by the body of the bit at full diameter with cutting edges at 90 deg to the axis, almost like a Forstner Bit but with a pilot drill tip instead of a tapered wood screw tip and without the grain shearing knives at the perimeter.  It works very well in aluminum and brass but I will stick with the standard tip for steel.  In this case, I have used it without drilling a pilot hole first and the breakouts on the sides are very clean and there was no evidence of wandering.  The hole is only .25" deep.

EccFollowerl0012 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

Holes drilled and tapped #2-56 for clamp bolts/studs.

EccFollowerl0012 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

EccFollowerl0014 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

And then split down the middle with a slitting saw.

EccFollowerl0015 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

Now it is just a matter of screwing the halves together, drilling the center to .625", and profiling the outer edge to .700"

EccFollowerl0016 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

And here it is at 5/8" after first going 1/4", and 1/2" to prevent grabbing of the cutting edge by the thin material.

EccFollowerl0018 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

This is a poor quality picture but you can now see the purpose of the big hole in the small plate edge.  It makes a good looking joint as well as a very strong joint.  It is fairly easy to turn a force fit tenon on a 1/4" bar.

EccFollowerl0019 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

The rod is then profiled and the clevis hoe drilled.

ecc follower arml0001 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

ecc follower arml0002 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr

I made two of these of course but only photographed one.  Then I turned the eccentrics to fit the followers.  I will hold off on drilling the eccentric offset for now.  Only a few more parts now and the parts crew will be finished.  It may be time to put the assembly crew on alert.

Jerry
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 08:28:03 AM by Jo »
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Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2019, 02:55:18 AM »
I am really disturbed. I spent a good amount of time writing a detailed description of the above photographs that should have appeared between  each pictures and none of the interspersed text got posted.  Rats!!!


Oh well, you guys are smart, you will figure it out.  Ask questions if it is not clear what is going on.  I don't have the energy to go back and try to edit it tonight.  Maybe tomorrow after my meds kick in.


Jerry
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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2019, 03:13:19 AM »
I really like the design of that. Will the arm from the follower be silver soldered in place?

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2019, 08:28:32 AM »
I am really disturbed. I spent a good amount of time writing a detailed description of the above photographs that should have appeared between  each pictures and none of the interspersed text got posted.  Rats!!!


All fixed  ;)

Jo
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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2019, 02:18:58 PM »
Jo, thanks for the fix.  Where did I go wrong? Did I exceed some limit?
 
Chris, thanks for the comment.  The slanted part is not an original design concept.  I first saw it on this forum in photographs of a beam engine in a museum but I can't recall anything more specific.  It is also useful where the crankshaft is close to the base. 


The big hole in the edge may be an original concept.  I don't remember ever seeing it anywhere but who knows?  All of our ideas are the result of accumulated exposure to other ideas.  I had first thought of milling a slot on the end of the arm but my 1/8" end mill produced a slightly oversize slot and the fit was not adjustable.  I can't adjust the size of the hole that the drill bit makes but turning a tight fitting tenon is easy.  The curve at each side of the slot provides a very stable connection.  The fit is so tight that adjusting the angle of the rod to get the pivot hole in line with the eccentric bore required the use of a fair amount of force.  Silver solder not in my skill set.  Soft solder may be used mostly for the cosmetic of blending the exposed end of the rod.  If I use threaded rod for the stud (I will) the end of the stud adjacent to the arm can be used as a set screw to clamp the end of the rod.




EccFollowerl0019 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


Jerry
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 02:33:39 PM by Captain Jerry »
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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2019, 04:52:12 PM »
Jo, thanks for the fix.  Where did I go wrong? Did I exceed some limit?

For some reason your post had some odd HTML code in it  :headscratch: I can only think it was picked up when you put your links in to the photos and where the HTML code had not been 'closed' our site assumed it had to be sent to the photo hosting site as part of the image insertion request... All very odd   :zap:

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2019, 01:45:48 PM »
Having completed the eccentrics, I could begin to assemble the crankshaft.  I have never used a crankshaft this long.  It is 4" between the outer bearings with a third bearing in the middle so it must be STRAIGHT!  The piece of TGP steel shaft that has been lying in my storage for over two years, that I intended for this job is not.  It looks pretty good until th e bearing caps are fitted.


Is it possible to straighten this shaft that measures about .010" out in the center of 5" length?
There are thing that you can do and some things you can't do.
Don't worry about it. try it anyway.

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2019, 03:14:03 AM »
Well it is apparently not possible to straighten a shaft like this one or at least not easy.  All of my efforts just made it worse so I will take another approach.  I could order another shaft but part of the purpose of this project is to use stuff that I have on hand so I will make one.  I have a bunch of 3/8" mild steel rod with a head on one end and a point on the other ( 60d nail ) that I have used for other parts so why not for the shaft?


I don't know how straight it is but won't the process of turning it in the lathe take care of that?  Well not on the first attempt.  I know that I should set up between centers instead of driving it with the three jaw but if i'm going to do this from one setup whats the difference?  I'm going to cut off the short piece at the chuck end anyway so the part will be spinning on the spindle axis anyway.  I did center drill the tailstock end and set it up on the ball bearing center.


Well, here is the problem.  I used a freshly sharpened tool bit but the material is relatively soft, and even using a conservative feed, the force on the cut was hard to keep even.  It would go along smoothly, turning up a nice, even curly chip and then it would dig in a bit, causing the stock to deflect upwards before the cutting edge would break out and continue cutting evenly.  Of course the rising stock is more of a problem in the middle of the rod than it is at either end and even if the bit wasn't digging in and jumping, just the cutting pressure of the normal cut was causing the rod to deflect upwards and change the effective radius of the part.  Scrap one part.


My analysis was that the 3-jaw was the problem.  Not because it is not perfectly centered but because it gripped to hard. When the bit digs in, the torque to keep turning the rod goes way up and it is that torque that causes the rod to deflect upwards.  What if the rod just stalled when the torque got too high?  My solution was to take another short length of nail, Put it in the chuck, and turn a point on it to match the angle of the center drill hole.   The rod is set up between two centers.  A hard one on the tail end and a soft one in the 3-jaw.  The only torque turning the rod is provided by the friction  of the soft point in a center drilled hole.  If the torque load gets too high, the part will just stop turning.  Un-believably, it worked.  No upward deflection.  Occasional stalls but one I got the feed rate and depth of cut worked out, it went smoothly and I got a six inch long shaft with only about .002" difference over the whole length.   By the way,  the optimum DOC was about .004" and the feed very damned slow.  But it is done. It only took about 25 passes and was boring as hell and you would not enjoy a picture of me asleep at the lathe.  But I caan now proceed with the crankshaft.


I got the two throws assembled, pinned and trimmed but before pinning them on the shaft, I had to do one more trial assemble to check clearances.  Its pretty damned close in there. 


This is really a simple project.  I'm just making it complicated by thinking about it to much. Here are some pics of the last trial assembly.


clearaancesl0001 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr


And this one too


clearaancesl0006 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr




clearaancesl0004 by captain.jerry Ginn, on Flickr




Jerry
There are thing that you can do and some things you can't do.
Don't worry about it. try it anyway.

Offline Gas_mantle

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Re: Quarry Bank Mill Engine
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2019, 08:46:56 AM »
Its coming along nicely Jerry  :)