Author Topic: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock  (Read 28420 times)

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #315 on: January 21, 2019, 05:10:17 PM »
Still in set up mode here, trying to get the hit and miss action sorted out. I changed from a shcs to a piece of 1/2" dia. cold rolled round and milled a notch in the rocker arm.

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #316 on: January 21, 2019, 07:43:33 PM »
I've worked enough today. I can not find that sweet spot for the hit and miss action. I believe I have tried every combination of spring pressure on both ends of the governor pivot, have added weights, have taken away weights, and that bit of action seen in the last video was about the best hit and miss action I've had.  I may have to make a design change to something, but right at the moment I'm not sure what. One thing that I've seen, and seen repeatedly, is that the action of the rocker arm is so fast that the portion of governor which is supposed to interact with the rocker arm to hold the exhaust valve open doesn't have a chance to get in where it has to be to stop the rocker arm.--Hope you understood that!!! You can see a good example of what I am talking about in the last 10 or 15 seconds of the video. I have to think on this for a while.

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #317 on: January 21, 2019, 08:36:18 PM »
Bear with me folks.--Thinking out loud here. When the engine is running like it did in the last 10 or 15 seconds of the video, and the latch won't engage, if I touch the end of the governor arm very lightly, the latch will engage. It seems to need a little more force than the flyweights provide to make it engage. The way to fix that is to either run the engine faster or to make the governor weights a little heavier. I don't have much control on how fast the engine runs. Without the governor in place it goes so damned fast its rather terrifying. The engine speed is totally a function of the governor. HOWEVER---I can make the governor weights heavier. If I do, the governor will provide more force to make the latch engage every time the engine speed starts to pick up. The other end of the stick, is that the latch has to disengage before the engine slows down so much that it dies out. At low speed such as near the end of a "miss cycle" the governor weights aren't having much effect on the rocking governor arm. The compression spring on the other side of the governor arm pivot provides the force required to disengage the latch and return the governor balls closer to the stem post, and enter the "Hit cycle" again. The simplest design change I can make right now is to add some weight to the governor arms. I will make the added weight removeable so that if that doesn't work I can return things to what they were.

Offline coulsea

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #318 on: January 21, 2019, 10:55:02 PM »
I have not built a hit and miss engine yet but I have thought about it a lot. My last ic took a while to get running properly because things change as it runs in, it now start with a flick of the flywheel and can go down to 600 revs but if I had the added complication of hit and miss I would probably still be working on it. my conclusion at this stage is that I would not attempt the hit and miss part until the engine was run in and consistent with a throttle carb and then add the hit and miss and when that was all working maybe replace the carb with a non throttle one. I wonder if you have tuned your engine to run at higher revs than your governor can handle. if you could put a throttle between your carb and the intake to slow it down a bit and then adjust your governor springs and mixture to suit the lower revs. that would solve the problem of the governor not having time to engage.

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #319 on: January 21, 2019, 11:40:27 PM »
Coulsea--every new engine is a mystery to be solved. Since I am using a Viton ring on the piston, there is very little to "wear in" there. The steel valves and brass valve seats wear in completely after a half hour of running, and the compression increases  incredibly. The friction of crankshaft and con rod and side-shaft does wear in in about an hours running. As far as tuning the engine to run at higher or lower speeds--there is very little to tune on an engine like this. Ignition timing, exhaust valve timing, and carburetor needle jet adjustment. The intake valve is "atmospheric" and uses no cam, only engine vacuum. Again, remember that the speed of a hit and miss engine is not governed by the carburetor. It is governed by the governor. Any hit and miss engines I have ever seen will "run away" with crazy high rpm if the governor is disconnected. You are correct that before trying to set up the governor you have to have the engine so it will run well, and keep one hand near the kill switch in case the engine "runs away".

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #320 on: January 21, 2019, 11:46:00 PM »
And this is the right point in a build to trot out my favourite governor story.
I grew up in the kinder, gentler, far more poverty stricken world of the 1950's. I have a firm belief that it wasn't necessity that was the mother of invention---poverty was. The lack of money created a world of tinkerers and inventors, simply because there was no money to buy the proper tool or machine. An older friend of mine, named Leonard had built a portable buzz saw for cutting firewood. This was basically a 48" diameter circular saw mounted on the chassis of a model A Ford, circa 1930 or 1931. The lengths of wood were lifted onto a tilting carriage, and the carriage was tilted into the saw to cut up lengths of firewood. The saw was driven by a flat belt and pulley arrangement that came from the rear of the old Fords transmission. Now, Leonard had a problem----The old 4 cylinder Ford engine had babbit bearings, so it did not take kindly to prolonged high speed revving. However, if someone didn't open the throttle and give it some gas when the log engaged the saw, the engine would stall. Leonard was a veteran tinkerer, and somehow come into the possession of a set of flyball governors off an old steam engine. He mounted them with a belt drive from the Ford engine, and hooked them up to the carburetor with a system of levers and pulleys. The theory was quite simple---under no load conditions the old Ford would set there idling, but as soon as the log engaged the buzz saw, the rpm's would drop off, and the flyball governors would open the throttle automatically. This was a perfectly good working theory!!! The problem was that Leonard somehow got one of his lever arrangements bass ackwards. When the last bolt was tightened, and the last brace welded in place, Leonard went to test his creation. He started the Ford---that part worked perfect. As soon as it started however, the flyballs began to fly outward from centrifugal force, and the farther out they flew, the more the lever mechanism opened the throttle. The engine went from zero to a zillion rpm's in the blink of an eye. Leonard leaped from the drivers seat and raced around the car to pull off the coil wire and shut down the engine---and at the same time the flyball governor self-destructed (it too was by then doing a zillion rpm's). One of the steel balls flew  and hit poor Leonard directly in the kneecap and broke it into a dozen pieces--then the old Ford engine self-destructed in a scream of tortured babbit bearings and shattered castings!! Leonard eventually recovered, though he walked with a limp ever afterwards. We all survived the 1950's, but it certainly was a time that gave rise to a lot of interesting stories.---Brian.

Offline Art K

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #321 on: January 22, 2019, 01:07:25 AM »
And you Brian are full of these stories, and they are always worth hearing. You do realize that if the added weight doesn't work and you take them off the flyweights will be that much lighter, just stating the obvious. But you are probably right and that will do the trick.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #322 on: January 22, 2019, 01:14:26 AM »
Art--I'm glad you said it was stories that I am full of----Governors are always fun and exciting and frustrating. To my knowledge, there is no "tried and true" formula for a governor. This is "Try it and see if it works" engineering at it's very finest. If I get it working to my satisfaction, I'm going to sell plans to this engine. If I don't get it to work, at least I have built a face cam that works, which is something I've never built before.---Brian

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #323 on: January 23, 2019, 09:45:07 PM »
Ever since Photobucket got all crazy a year or so ago I have used a paid subscription to Image Shack. Image Shack has now quit working for me and I can not reach anybody at their head office in California to help me to get it working again. I have been very happy with Image Shack up until now.---Brian
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 02:48:31 PM by Brian Rupnow »

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #324 on: January 24, 2019, 07:20:15 PM »
No joy with the hit and miss action. The engine itself runs great, but I am afraid I am going to have to go for a redesign of the hit and miss mechanism. I will post this YouTube link, and then I probably won't post anymore on this engine until I have sorted out the hitting and missing. For some reason my Image Shack service has stopped working and I can't find anyone there to help get things sorted out, so I have lost my ability to post still pictures. Gahhhhhh

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #325 on: January 25, 2019, 03:18:10 PM »
I may have solved my problems with Image Shack. This picture (if it shows up) shows that the weights added to my governor weights were not as shown in the 3D model I posted. I decided to mount the weights to the underside of the existing weights instead. They are less apt to hit the side of the cooling water tower when added like this.---Brian
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 07:07:18 PM by Brian Rupnow »

Offline Roger B

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #326 on: January 25, 2019, 03:48:38 PM »
The engine looks good in the video but I just see a white cross on a black background for the image  :(
Best regards

Roger

Online crueby

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #327 on: January 25, 2019, 04:05:31 PM »
Image shows fine here.

Offline Brian Rupnow

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #328 on: January 25, 2019, 04:31:39 PM »
For the past two weeks something has been fishy with the images. Some folks see them, some don't. For 2 or 3 days I tried to contact Image Shack to complain, but there is no way to contact them directly. My account is a paid account, so it should work fine all the time. Last night I thought "Maybe if I just log out then log back in to Image shack that will do something, and it did. I can now post pictures again. I really don't know whats going on.

Offline Art K

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Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
« Reply #329 on: January 25, 2019, 06:04:43 PM »
Brian,
Talk about fishy, a few weeks ago I was looking at photos from my Val build to reference, and they all had this sandy grainy gray and white mark in the corner saying something like "photo provided by photobucket". This was after I had gone through and replaced each photo to the Lister engine forum photo gallery... :thinking: Its all back to normal now... :headscratch:
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King