Author Topic: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine  (Read 17387 times)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2018, 07:34:39 AM »

Quote
The nut and bolt mandrel doesn't get in the way of the tail stock, I wouldn't worry too much about that area it won't be noticed on the finished engine.

Stew

Stew, I do indeed see the wisdom of your approach as the tailstock certainly proved to be a problem to work on the unfinished side of the rim.  I do have a question though.  If you use the nut and bolt type mandrel, how do you finish off the end of the hub as it would be covered by the nut?  Or do you also secure it with Loctite and do that op and then screw down the nut for added holding power? 

Just curious as I'm thinking about how to improve the process for the next time.

Thanks very much for your input!

Mike

I just roughly set it up in the four jaw:- it doesn't have to run true, and face it up, then make the mandrel .

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the way

Offline mikehinz

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2018, 04:49:38 PM »
Quote
I just roughly set it up in the four jaw:- it doesn't have to run true, and face it up, then make the mandrel .

Stew


Stew, thanks very much!  That makes perfect sense.

Mike
MIke
Wichita, KS, USA

Offline mikehinz

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2018, 12:51:15 AM »
I managed to get a pretty good start on the crankshaft, and I thought I'd document the progress on it so far.

First i cut the crank webs to rough dimension on the bandsaw and cut the to-be crankshaft and crank pin out of drill rod.  I then trued up the crank webs on the mill and turn the round stock to the exact spec'd length and drilled center holes on each end of the crankshaft, just because I like the way that looks, there's no functional reason for the center holes at this point (at least I don't think so!).  I'm not showing these ops as they are pretty straightforward.
Pix of the parts ready for the next op.


On the crank webs, I was very careful to get them to the same width and length by machining them together in the vise.  To make sure that the crank would run true, I stacked the 2 crank webs together in the vise and spotted/drilled/reamed both holes simultaneously. 
Setup in the mill vise using a square to make sure the webs are aligned in width.


Spot drilling the locations for the holes in the webs.


Drilling thru both locations.  For the crank pin hole, i drilled 1/64" under .25" and for the crankshaft I drilled 1/64" under 5/16". 


Reaming the hole for the pin and the crankshaft to .250" and .3125" respectively.  I slowed the mill down to 150 rpm and liberally applied lube for the reaming op.


The pieces hand assembled on the print.  The fit was very snug.  I could hand assemble the parts but it took some pressure.  I ended up polishing the round bits in the lathe with a bit of Scotch Brite just to ease the fit a bit.  Rightly or wrongly, I decided that the fit was ok.  Quick question.  Does everyone try to get a really 'firm' or 'tight' fit or is it better to open it up to maybe a thousand over?  I'd say the clearance I had was about .0002 to .0004 as best as I could measure.


Related to the crankshaft is of course the main bearings.  I assembled them on the base plate and then made sure they were aligned with a rod that was about .001 under the bearing size, so i could slip it though.  The pix shows this alignment.


The crankshaft would not go thru yet as I'd left the bearings just undersize.  This pix shows reaming thru the bearing with an on-size (.3125) reamer.  I put the reamer in a drill chuck and simply rotated it by hand and passed it through both main bearings.  At this point the crankshaft would pass thru the bearing but was quite tight.  It was certainly not freely rotatable.


Closeup of the reaming op.  In this pix, i used a .001" over 5/16" reamer, again rotating it by hand.


Then checking the fit again with the actual crankshaft rod.  Now the fit felt good to me.  I could detect almost no slop or play but the shaft rotated freely in the bearings.  The bearing material is SAE 660 bronze.


Just as a comment, in the future I don't think I'll try to ream thru both bearings like this again.  With the small size of everything, there's quite a bit of flex as you try to insert and rotate the reamer, even being quite gentle.  For a built-up engine like this, I think in the future I'll just ream the bearings .001" over and then assemble.  There's enough play in the fastening arrangement to take out any small misalignment that may result.  A cast engine assembly, I suppose would be different as you'd have to do the reaming in place.

I didn't show the Loctite being applied and the parts being assembled.  Things were happening fast and i didn't have time to take any pix.  What i did end up doing was finding a .30" block and clamping it between the webs to establish the spacing after applying Loctite to the crank pin.  Then I applied Loctite just ahead of where the crank webs would go on the shaft and slid it into place, checking the position with a dial caliper.   

This process worked, but I used Loctite 603 and it sets up VERY fast so I started feeling the parts getting very hard to move.  After looking closely at the specification sheets and looking thru other build logs, it seems most people use Loctite 638, which is stated to more viscous with a much longer cure time.  The strengths of both are almost equivalent.  So, I'll for sure get a bottle of 638 to have on hand and depending on the circumstance use the appropriate product.  I can tell you that I almost didn't get the parts in place before they locked up solid! 

After curing overnight, and based on the wisdom of other builders, I went ahead and pinned the crank parts together as sort of a 'belt and braces' approach.  The first pix shows 4 holes drilled in the crank assembled.  I did not drill all the way thru the webs.  I went to about .050" short of the opposite side. That way I will only have to clean up one side!  I used a #49 drill (.073") and went and bought a small box of 4D finish nails.  I mic'd a number of nails and selected 4 that were just under .073", say nominal .0735".  That size could be easily pressed into each hole.  I clipped off the points and ground a small bevel on each nail so they were pretty flat but still had a feature to ease the start into each hole. 


Then I applied Loctite 603 to each hole and to each pin and pressed each one into place and lightly drove each pin in with a small hammer.  You can see the Loctite that was displaced as the pins were driven in.


Then I clipped most of the exposed length off of each pin and peened each one a bit just to make sure they fit completely and tightly in each hole.


Right now I'm letting this assembly cure overnight and in the am, will file/grind/sand off the remainder of the pins and will see how well I can blend them into the crank webs.   Then I'll mill out the center portion of the shaft and that should complete the crankshaft.

This crankshaft has been quite a learning experience so far.  I'm not sure that I did everything correctly, but I think it will work out.  My main question(s) is regarding the clearances that are best for the fit between the shafts and the webs and also the best clearance for the pins.  Is is best to have have a hand fit on the pin or should they be tighter so as to have to be driven in firmly?  Also I used soft iron nails but would it be better to use something like hardened dowel pins?   Taper pins would probably be the ultimate but I didn't want to purchase a reamer as they seem to be around $40 for a 7/0 or 6/0 reamer.  Opinions on the above?

All for today!

Enjoy!

Mike

MIke
Wichita, KS, USA

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2018, 08:21:21 AM »
Hi Mike

Great looking crank shaft  :) . As for your fit ? I’d probably say you’ve made the fits too good, drilled holes with a little bit of shake would have worked out ok all round as for the soft iron pins I use nail the same as you they to can be lose they are soft enough to tighten up when you rivet them over .

Hope this helps
Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the way

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2018, 02:41:46 PM »
Mike the flywheel turned out beautifully!!  The crankshaft is coming along quite well too. I am enjoying following along on your build  :whoohoo:

Bill

Offline mikehinz

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2018, 02:42:58 PM »
Hi Mike

Great looking crank shaft  :) . As for your fit ? I’d probably say you’ve made the fits too good, drilled holes with a little bit of shake would have worked out ok all round as for the soft iron pins I use nail the same as you they to can be lose they are soft enough to tighten up when you rivet them over .

Hope this helps
Stew

Stew, thanks for the tips!  I'm glad I used the nails now and I'll for sure open up the fit a bit on the shafts/webs interface on the next project.  I'm also going to definitely go to the Loctite 638 on the next one due to the curing time and viscosity. 

Again, thanks for your help!

Mike.
MIke
Wichita, KS, USA

Offline mikehinz

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2018, 08:07:39 PM »
This morning I managed to complete the crankshaft and even got to try fitting it to the rest of the assembly. 

Here we go..............

First pix shows how I got rid of the remaining protrusions from the clipped off pins that I used to further secure the shafts to the webs.  I used my belt sander with a 150 grit belt installed.  I carefully checked to make sure the table was square to the platen.


Here's the crank assembly after the work on the belt sander followed by a little hand sanding on some 220 grit paper laid on top of the belt sander table.  The pins remain visible, but barely so. 


Then I setup the crankshaft in the milling vise and carefully found the edge of one of the webs in the x axis and moved the cutter to center.   Cutter is a 1/4" 4 flute carbide end mill that I ran at about 1600 rpm.  i took about .050" deep cuts until the cutter was all the way thru the center portion of the crankshaft, then moved over about .025" from center to each side until the remaining shaft material was cleaned up and the cutter just barely started to touch the webs on the inside.  This worked out well as the inside of the crank is quite smooth.


I put the finished crankshaft in the lathe in a collet and spun it over by hand and measured the runout on each end of the shaft.  Runout was at a max of .0015" on either end so I think that turned out pretty well!


Pix of the finished crankshaft on top of the print.


Another pix of the finished crankshaft on top of the print.


Pix of the crankshaft installed in the engine assembly.  The crank turns freely and will rotate from the weight of the webs with almost no perceptible radial play.


Finally 3 pix of the assembled engine with all the parts that I've completed to date.  If I spin the flywheel by hand, it turns freely and without detectable radial or axial runout on at the rim.  There is some wobble on the unmachined surfaces but I don't think it's objectionable and i can't think of any way to get it better.  If I spin it by hand it takes about 5 or 6 seconds to spin down to rest.
Pix 1


Pix 2


Pix 3


I'm pretty happy to get to this stage!  Next to do are all the remaining smaller components.  Hopefully I'll get at least a start on these various parts later today.

All for now.

Enjoy!

Mike
MIke
Wichita, KS, USA

Offline Johnmcc69

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2018, 08:43:31 PM »
 :ThumbsUp:
Great looking parts Mike!
 :popcorn:
John

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2018, 09:20:05 PM »
Looks great Mike  :ThumbsUp:

Nice progress photos too!
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
"To work. To work."
Zee-Another Thread Trasher.

Offline crueby

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2018, 09:21:14 PM »
Very well done!
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2018, 01:02:10 AM »
Very nice Mike. Won't be long now!!

Bill

Offline mikehinz

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2018, 01:06:22 AM »
It's been several days since I've posted on this build, but today's the day!.  I've had all sort of interruptions that have kept me out of the shop but I have managed to sneak in a bit each day and so some of the remaining parts but having just short periods in the shop seems to slow progress down too much!

Anyway, on to making more parts!

First part up is making the piston rod packing nut.  First pix is turning a piece of 1/2" brass hex to diameter to thread 5/16-24.  I'm lucky to have hex collets for this sort of part.  Makes things much easier!


The finished valve rod guide packing nut on the print.


I didn't take any pix of the operations on this part as it's very straightforward.  Shown is the finished piston rod laid on the print.


Then on to making the crosshead pin.  I cut a piece of 1/4" drill rod to length and turned down each end to thread 8-32.  Shown in the pix is putting a bevel on the end of the part to ease starting the die.  This also seems to help eliminate burrs and overly sharp starting threads.


Cutting thread relief with a .040" parting tool so that this pin can be threaded all the way onto the  crosshead slides.


The finished crosshead pin on top of the print.


I'm going to break this into several posts in order to make the editing of each one a bit easier. 

More to come shortly.

Enjoy!

MIke
MIke
Wichita, KS, USA

Offline mikehinz

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2018, 01:20:34 AM »
Next parts up are the piston valve rod guide and the slides for the crosshead.  I made these our of aluminum bronze as I could get a piece of it from Hobby Metal Kits at a pretty good piece.  I bought a flat bar that was just under 1/2" x 1" x 12" so I cut a bit off and further cut 3 pieces out of that and then brought each piece to dimension in the mill.  I was able to hold all 3 pieces at the same time in the vise and then just took passes on all 3 to get to the required size.


Since I had repeated operations, I used a 1-2-3 block to set the end of each piece flush with the end of the vise jaws.  That way once to did the edge finding I could do all 3 pieces without redoing that step.


Drilling the holes for the piston valve rod guide.  Having the piece flush with the jaws was handy as 2 holes have to be drilled on different faces.


The finished piston valve rod guide/crosshead guide bar spacer made from AL bronze.


I didn't show the specific operations, but here are the finished slide bars also from the AL bronze.  These just required a precise thickness so has to fit inside the guide bars and have a 8-32 hole drilled/tapped thru the center of one side.


Then the final pix in this reply is the assembled slide bars and crosshead pin.  Miraculously the screwed together!


More to come in the next post.

Enjoy!

Mike
MIke
Wichita, KS, USA

Offline mikehinz

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2018, 02:21:56 AM »
Next parts are up.

First is lapping the cylinder.  Previously I had bored and reamed it to .625.  As closely as I could measure, it was slightly over 5/8" at .6258".  So that 5/8" reamer turned out to make a slightly larger hole than expected.  But in any case I'm going to fit the piston to the bore, so no big deal. 

First pix shows my setup for lapping.  I chucked up a 5/8" Acro lap in a collet on my lathe and used Timesavers 'green' lapping compound since this cylinder is made of cast iron.  I just mixed a small amount of the Timesavers powder in a bit of motor oil and applied it to the lap.  I also put some shop towels on the lathe ways below the lapping area.


Another pix of the setup for lapping with the cylinder shown on the lap.  I was turning the lathe at 90 rpm and holding the cylinder with one hand and holding the lathe jog button down with the other.  That way the lathe would stop the instant I took my hand from the jog button.  I  went thru 2 different grits, ending up at fine and kept going until the cylinder's tooling marks were gone.  I never got to a 'polished' appearance though.


Then I lapped the piston valve body.  Shown is the 'yellow' Timesavers lapping paste, again the powder was mixed with a bit of motor oil and applied to a 1/4" Acro lap.  You can easily see the yellow color so its hard to mix up the 2 different products.  I just used the 'fine' grit as I didn't think I needed to take much out of the ID of the valve body but did need to clean it up as drill rod that I plan to use for the valve wouldn't go thru the bore and the bore had a fair number of burrs inside from all the cross-drilled holes.


Lapping the piston valve body.  Same process as the cylinder but with a different lap and different compound. 


I'd made up a 'gage' pin from drill rod to judge when I had the ID lapped sufficiently.  At this point the pin would slide thru with just a bit of pressure applied to it so I called it good.


I will say that the Timesavers lapping compound is interesting stuff. It does exactly what they claim, that is it stops cutting fairly quickly so it has to reapplied fairly often during the lapping process.  At least with this stuff, changing grits isn't that much of a problem and it's hard to overdo it.

Next up is the piston.  I made this out of cast iron.  Shown is a piece of nominal 3/4" CI being turned to the required OD.


Checking the fit in the cylinder.  I ended up going about .0015" under the cylinder OD.  More on this in a bit.


Tapping 4-40 for the piston rod.  Piston rod is 5/32" drill rod.  I didn't show the op but I also put in a short counterbore to accept the diameter of the piston rod and to hopefully then keep the piston rod straight with the bore.


The completed piston rod / piston shown on top of the print.  Note the oring.


The piston / piston rod assembled into the cylinder with the cylinder cover and piston rod gland all assembled.  The piston assembly does move up and down in the cylinder bore with what I THINK is about the right resistance.  I can feel and hear air being displaced as I move the assembly by hand and i don't feel any sticky points.


Soooo, about that oring and sizing...........

I decided to try an oring as I'd read a lot about using them in model engines and many report good success.  I have a fair bit of experience with oring seals as used in high pressure applications but this is a different kettle of fish as they say.  Two points seem relevant to me.  First this is a dynamic seal and second, friction is ultra important (that is, friction needs to be as low as possible while still sealing).   Standard o'ring design guides (Parker, National et al) recommend a degree of compression on the ring that IMO results in much too high level of friction for model engines.  A lot of searching brought me to a post from a gent known as 'BobsModels'.  I followed his method and it seems to work.  His method results in a around .002" to .0025" squeeze on the oring per side or about .004 to .005 squeeze on diameter. 

For my particular situation, I calculated what I needed to make the oring groove diameter.
My cylinder ID - .6268"
O'ring is a -014 nominal dims 5/8" x 1/2" x .0625"  Actual dims .629" x .489" x .070.
Desired squeeze on diameter is then:
.6268 -(.070 x 2) -.005 = .4918" 
So I made the oring groove .4918" diameter x .094" width (width was from standard oring practice, see Parker et al)

And as far as I can tell, this works, at least as judged by the hand pressure it takes to move the piston thru the bore.  We'll see whenever I actually get it assembled and on air pressure.

More to come.

Enjoy!

Mike.

MIke
Wichita, KS, USA

Offline crueby

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Re: Pottyengineering Horizontal Mill Engine - Imperial - Mike's 3rd Engine
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2018, 02:31:58 AM »
Excellent sequences, great work!!


 :popcorn:

 

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