Author Topic: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine  (Read 2186 times)

Offline Jo

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2018, 09:18:04 AM »
Blackgates are in the business of selling castings not managing the design of engines.. If you want up to date modern drawings then buy your casting sets from Hemmingway.

I for one am very happy that they have finally, after many decades of trying to acquire the rights, managed to make the Clarkson designs and casting sets available again   :pinkelephant:

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2018, 10:15:09 AM »
When I spoke to them previously they said that they were waiting to put some onto the market until they had got them built up to check things, I was hoping that these checks may have thrown up any problems. Even if a new drawing was not produced they could have noted it on the copy or simply enclosed an A4 sheet with notes on.

Maybe I'll have another word with them and see if they would be OK with me writing up a build from their castings for ME and I would include a set of upto date drawings, most likely in metric as the majority of beginners who may want these kits will be metrically minded.

If they are in the business of selling castings then one would think a decent set of drawings would boost sales which must be good business sense, selling the castings with the old poor drawings will tend to put people off not encourage them to buy. Its a shame that when they aquired the rights they also seem to have also gained the Clarkson reputation for undersize and chilled castings as part of the package :(

Unfortunately hemmingway's engines are not really suitable for a beginner and it is these beginners that would most benefit from correct drawings ::)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 10:20:38 AM by Jasonb »

Offline Mike Bondarczuk

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2018, 10:16:29 AM »
Hi Phil,

Really appreciate the 3D images you have posted and they explain a lot of the design.

Hi Jason,

Your suggestions regarding reducing the height of the cylinder blocks to fit in with the available pedestal heights has a lot of merit and one will I shall investigate much further as a possible option, instead of going the rote of cutting down the pedestal height dramatically and making two new crank bearing blocks from scratch.

Shhhh, and not only did I manage to get Jo to release this casting set but I also coerced her into parting with her Stothert and Pitt Beam engine castings  :hellno:, and those are superb with individual A4 sheet drawings for each individual component.

Mike
"Everything I can't find is in a totally secure place"

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2018, 10:37:27 AM »
Mike, that does seem to be the simplest way to get the height issue sorted out. Probably flatten the bottoms of the bed castings so you have a decent surface to put on the mill table then clean up the tops of the bearing pedestals until you have a good clean surface then do the cylinder pad and note what the height difference is once you get down to 0.040" - 0.062" above the bed. You can then use this dimension as the cylinder bore to base rather than the 1 1 /16" shown.

I also see that the Piston will hit the two cylinder covers as there is no allowance for an end space :wallbang: I suggest you make the piston 3/8" thick rather than the 7/16" shown which will leave 1/32" between it and the spigots on the cylinder covers.

It is a pity to hear that your trunk guides may be chilled as they are the most fiddly to fabricate if the bead detail around the slot is to be retained. Keep me posted on what they are like and I'll see if I can come up with a way forward if they are not usable as they are. You might want to try heating first. It would also be nice to loose the notches at the ends of the trunk guides which look to be a bit of an afterthought when it was found that the conrods hit the guide :facepalm:

Offline Jo

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2018, 10:46:30 AM »
If they are in the business of selling castings then one would think a decent set of drawings would boost sales which must be good business sense, selling the castings with the old poor drawings will tend to put people off not encourage them to buy. Its a shame that when they aquired the rights they also seem to have also gained the Clarkson reputation for undersize and chilled castings as part of the package :(

Unfortunately hemmingway's engines are not really suitable for a beginner and it is these beginners that would most benefit from correct drawings ::)

I am not so negative as you are JB about the excellent service that Blackgates provide  :ShakeHead: How many Casting sets have you actually purchased from Blackgates? The castings Mike has are original Clarkson ones. I do not know how far Phil has got sorting through all the Clarkson stuff they acquired - they do have a business to run as well. Blackgates castings are normally good quality and very competitively priced, and they replace castings that are found to have problems, even years later  :)

Kirt at Hemmingway's has lots of engines that are not up on his website as he is "still drawing them up" or waiting to be able to get the rights to draw them up. Some are basic other are much more interesting to build, the problem is I doubt that many more engine sets will see light of day  :(


Mike  :-X  Surus is getting suspicious he is been busy doing an inventory of all his casting sets making sure none are missing and to think Colin is hoping to re-home a set of Sanderson Beam Engine castings from me at the Midlands show :paranoia:

Jo



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Offline Mike Bondarczuk

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2018, 10:53:58 AM »
Jo,

In that case perhaps you should arrange to send Surus away on holiday for a few weeks whilst you become creative in your stock check  :happyreader:

Mike
"Everything I can't find is in a totally secure place"

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2018, 11:04:59 AM »

I am not so negative as you are JB about the excellent service that Blackgates provide  :ShakeHead: How many Casting sets have you actually purchased from Blackgates?

This is why I asked if people were working from Old Clarkson or new Blackgates castings/Drawings. You said they were in the business of selling castings and NOT managing the designs so I assumed from that statement that they were just selling the old drawings. It would still be nice to know from anyone with Blackgates supplied castings and drawings if any alterations have been made to the patterns so they better reflect what is on the drawings and/or the drawings have been ammended.

. You say they will replace old castings does that Mean Mike can get his chilled trunkguides replaced and what about the undersize bed castings? However if their castings are coming out undersize then unless they do some work to the patterns a replacement will be no better so not much point in asking for a replacement, better to work out a way to rework things or bin it and make from scratch

Well at least 75% of the Minnie came from them and I did top up a few Superba bits so that must be equal to several small stationary engine casting sets. :)

Offline Jo

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2018, 11:14:31 AM »
You say they will replace old castings does that Mean Mike can get his chilled trunkguides replaced and what about the undersize bed castings?

Mike does not have Trunk guide castings they are some of the castings missing from the set. Earlier I mentioned that here is no Clarkson bed casting drawing just a sketch of the bearing pedestal so it is difficult to see how you could show it is undersized. 

I think asking a third party company to replace something that someone else made decades earlier is more than a bit cheeky   :stickpoke:

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2018, 11:32:44 AM »
Ah yes they were Eric's Guides, just thought they came from Eric to you and then to Mike

Well if the other dimensioned parts don't fit the bed must either be undersize or even more dimensions wrong on the drawing. The pad for the cylinder is also smaller than the cylinder :'(

Mike further to the note about the piston hitting the covers, also make the 2" rod distance 2 1/32" when you reduce the piston to 3/8" if you stick with the 2" there is barely enough length in the rod to stop it hitting the packing nut too ::)

Bridport will exchange old Stuart supplied castings, though I suppose they bought the company name and goodwill not just rights to the castings and drawings

Offline Mike Bondarczuk

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2018, 11:39:05 AM »
Jason and Jo,

I don't have any problems with the castings I purchased from Jo nor any problems with Blackgates, who are very proactive, and have ordered some of the missing castings, including the trunk guides, and am sure that if they are chilled then they will take some form of remedial action.

I am actually collecting the castings from their stand at the Midlands show in two weeks today.

Just as an aside, if they are chilled how high a temperature do I need to "thaw" them out and for how long, assuming that an ordinary domestic oven would be OK to use.

The only negative comments I would make about this particular engine is that the drawings, which comprise of two A3 sheets with a general arrangement drawing and a very bad engineering details drawing plus an A4 sheet listing the castings and their part number, and these are all the original H. Clarkson & Son issued 12th July 1968, and I suspect the castings are of a similar vintage.

I also have two Stuart kits, the 10H and 10V and the castings are either just on size or undersize and they were the old ones from the Channel Islands, though I am soldiering on with those.

 Mike
"Everything I can't find is in a totally secure place"

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2018, 11:55:06 AM »
Mike did your drawings come from Blackgates? if not may be worth asking them at the show if the ones they now supply have had any revisions and buy a set if they have.

You will need a bit more than your oven. The castings need to get to a good bright red and for something that size held there for at least 1/2hr before being allowed to cool very slowly. You can use a propane torch or if you have an open fire or wood burning stove put it in there for the evening and allow to cool overnight in the ashes. Sometimes it works better than others but worth a try on castings that are hard to come by.

Offline Mike Bondarczuk

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2018, 12:34:33 PM »
Jason,

The drawings came with the castings and I strongly believe that they are the original supply from Clarkson and not Blackgates.

I shall ask them about the drawings which they now supply and the drawings are available as a set of 2 for 7 but I expect that is an old price.

Interestingly, their web page covering Clarkson kits quotes "the drawings are lacking in detail and it is expected that the builder would embellish the design according to his requirements" so I do not believe that they have any new drawings available though I will enquire.

Thank you for the information regarding the heat requirements in the event of chill spots.

Mike
"Everything I can't find is in a totally secure place"

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2018, 08:35:05 AM »
Phil was kind enough to share some of his CAD parts and I've had a little play with them. The two bearing version should not be too difficult to do.

Mostly moving the cylinder pad on the baseplate and cutting off one pedestal, I would probably also remove some width from the inside edge of the "L"

Also rounding the bottom of the cylinder casting so it sits on the bed plate and not hanging off the side.

A few more detailed tweaks will see the two engine halves a bit closer together but the basic concept seems to be possible. If the two bed castings were replaced with something else a very nice engine could start to emerge :)

Offline pgp001

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2018, 01:04:25 PM »
If the two bed castings were replaced with something else a very nice engine could start to emerge :)

I was beginning to come to the same conclusion myself, if there needs to be so much modification to two seperate bedplates, why not chuck em in the bin and fabricate one bedplate that does the job properly and looks more in keeping with the general design. It would be much easier to keep the main bearings lined up if they were on one solid baseplate as well.

I keep looking at those trunk guides as well, that slot to clear the con rod looks to be an afterthought to me, maybe it fouled on the original prototype and that was the easy way out. To my eye it just does not look right though and I think I would have to do something about it if I ever get round to building it.

Phil
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 01:08:35 PM by pgp001 »

Offline Jo

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Re: Clarkson Twin Horizontal Steam Engine
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2018, 01:09:56 PM »
This sounds like it is going to quickly become another argument not to use any castings at all  :disappointed:

Sometimes people buy a set of castings because it makes the engine they want to make  :)

Jo
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