Question about “heat treating” or “hardening” hot rolled A36 steel

[bent]

The 8 hour soak is one I remember as well, and an overnight soak in a damped fire was the method Dad used...

This was always a good reference, but there is also a fair bit of info. in Machinery's Handbook on the hardenability of steel.  A36 is pretty close to 1018 in hardenability.
https://www.emjmetals.com/pdf_indexer/pdfs/Mechanical_Properties_and_Hardenability.pdf

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

There are lots of old school methods

About 60 years ago a friend of my dads ( both passed now ) made very very good 2 1/2 gauge locos and I mead rivet perfect ( this is before cars were common and locos were taken to the track on the back of a motor bike )

Anyway back to the plot he case hardened all the motion and the polished it to a good finish , he used to pack the part in a tin (baccy tin for the small bits ) with bone meal ( ground up animal bone used for garden fertiliser ) and put it in the coal fire before bedtime ,fetched it out in the morning , reheated it to red and quenched this gave it a long soak to get the carbon it

Leather also works , as does any thing that has carbon in it

But times were tough then some cheaper method were used , but a good old powder mix was better


Btw I was a young 11 years old then but  I had been interested in making stuff before then

Hey again Stuart,

Well I am 77 years old and still do a lot of things the "ole fashion way", and it still seems to work. Back in the day when nobody had any money to speak of, we sure did get a lot of "stuff" done because we worked hard and really cared about the work we did. My daddy would come up out of his grave and give me a good thump on the head if I did not try my very best at whatever task I was doing.

Again I thank you so very much for your help.

Have a super great day,
Thomas

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

The 8 hour soak is one I remember as well, and an overnight soak in a damped fire was the method Dad used...

This was always a good reference, but there is also a fair bit of info. in Machinery's Handbook on the hardenability of steel.  A36 is pretty close to 1018 in hardenability.
https://www.emjmetals.com/pdf_indexer/pdfs/Mechanical_Properties_and_Hardenability.pdf

Hello Bent,

Thanks for the pdf.Chart I have saved it to my file. I forgot to tell Stuart that I have heard of people using bonemeal and leather in a soak.

Just finished drilling the 3-holes in the Punch and after lunch will drill the two side plates.

Thanks for the info and have a great day,
Thomas

[Admiral_dk]

It's a bit strange that you don't get more useful replies as there has been quite a bit about hardening various steels over the years on this site ....    I don't know if you ask about a steel type that isn't considered useful in this sense or what - but you could try to search this place ....

Best wishes

Per

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello Per,

I was a bit surprised that a lot people did not offer their own formula for case hardening. However, I am comfortable with the basic concept, I just have not decided weather or not to use the Cherry Red brand. I have several more days of work on the press so I have plenty of time.

Thanks for you interest and have a great day,
Thomas

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello everyone,

I welded up the Punch Beam this morning and I used some .0285 wire on both sides of the Punch as spacers from the Side Plates. This allows the easy removal of the Punch to be repaired or replaced if needed. On final assembly I will coat both sides of the Punch with a heavy layer of Anti-Seize Compound to ensure that it can be removed at any time. The 3rd photo is a first assembly of the Press parts completed to date, with the Punch not installed. The last photo shows the first pass on milling the Die.

I decided to use the brand “Cherry Red” powder when I case harden the Punch and will post the procedure and the results.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Ramon Wilson]

Hello Thomas - I have been AWOL for a while and have only just read your thread.

I have had a fair bit of experience in heat treating tool steels and have done a small amount of case hardening - this is both at work and play.

With case hardening as has been said the longer the part is in contact with the product - Kasenite, Cherry Red, bone meal etc etc the deeper the 'skin' of the hardened surface. To have anything considered effective this would need to be held at temp for some time - hence the advice of packing the part and material in a container and soaking over night in a fire.

Given however you just wish to put a hard surface on the the following should give you what you need.

Put some of the Cherry Red powder into a container that the part can be placed in. Heat the part to a good bright red and lay the part into the powder turning it to coat it where you want the hardness. Remove and reheat letting the heat really soak into the part - lay it back in the powder and repeat. It is a hot and smelly process and the part takes on a pretty miserable looking surface blistered and misshapen. That will disappear as soon as you quench it. 

Keep the heat up and when you are satisfied that you've given it enough treatment quench it - quickly - in clean and quite cold water. I stress that as it's important to get a good result. As said you need to plunge the part into the water really quickly and if Cherry Red responds the same as Kasenite you will hear a sharp crack as it hardens. If you find it has not hardened then reheat to a slightly hotter temperature but importantly change the water - as clean cold water will always give you the best results

Hope that is of help to you - it should give you what you are wanting.

Regards - Tug

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello Thomas - I have been AWOL for a while and have only just read your thread.

I have had a fair bit of experience in heat treating tool steels and have done a small amount of case hardening - this is both at work and play.

With case hardening as has been said the longer the part is in contact with the product - Kasenite, Cherry Red, bone meal etc etc the deeper the 'skin' of the hardened surface. To have anything considered effective this would need to be held at temp for some time - hence the advice of packing the part and material in a container and soaking over night in a fire.

Given however you just wish to put a hard surface on the the following should give you what you need.

Put some of the Cherry Red powder into a container that the part can be placed in. Heat the part to a good bright red and lay the part into the powder turning it to coat it where you want the hardness. Remove and reheat letting the heat really soak into the part - lay it back in the powder and repeat. It is a hot and smelly process and the part takes on a pretty miserable looking surface blistered and misshapen. That will disappear as soon as you quench it. 

Keep the heat up and when you are satisfied that you've given it enough treatment quench it - quickly - in clean and quite cold water. I stress that as it's important to get a good result. As said you need to plunge the part into the water really quickly and if Cherry Red responds the same as Kasenite you will hear a sharp crack as it hardens. If you find it has not hardened then reheat to a slightly hotter temperature but importantly change the water - as clean cold water will always give you the best results

Hope that is of help to you - it should give you what you are wanting.

Regards - Tug

Hello Tug,

This is exactly the first hand advise that I was hoping to get...thank you.

One question if you do not mind, I was told that a long pre-heat (like in an oven) at 350 to 400f for 4-plus hours prior to the Critical Heating and application would also be of help. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks again,
Thomas

[Ramon Wilson]

Hi again Thomas,

I cannot see that that would make any difference on 'home' methods other than to stress relieve the part. If you have made it from hot rolled steel as you state as opposed to CRS then what little stress that may be in the part should dissipate in the heat treatment.

Something I would add however is that whilst as said it's best to plunge the part into the water as quickly as possible it needs to be as 'evenly as possible' to eliminate any chances of uneven/unequal cooling creating distortion.

Good luck with your project

Regards - Tug


Thomas - I originally read your post before logging in - ergo did not see your images and had misread your 12.7" as mm. I have just realised what you have

That is a very big piece of material and much larger than anything I have done. To achieve what you want I'm sure this would be better to be done in an oven, the part held in a suitable container that holds the powder - I would envisage with the blade standing upright with its lower forming edge deep in the powder. The whole lot heated and left to soak for some time - it's going to be one big very hot piece to quench so make sure the water container is plenty big enough so that the quenching does not heat the water too quickly - at that thickness I would just let it 'drop in' vertically - preferably with some wire mesh in the container to prevent the part laying flat on the bottom and shielding one side from cooling quicker than the other.

Like I said Good Luck - that is a big bit of metal

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hi again Thomas,

I cannot see that that would make any difference on 'home' methods other than to stress relieve the part. If you have made it from hot rolled steel as you state as opposed to CRS then what little stress that may be in the part should dissipate in the heat treatment.

Something I would add however is that whilst as said it's best to plunge the part into the water as quickly as possible it needs to be as 'evenly as possible' to eliminate any chances of uneven/unequal cooling creating distortion.

Good luck with your project

Regards - Tug

Hello Tug,

Thank you for this information and all your help. Actually that is a bit of good news because that is one less step in the process that I need to be concerned with.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Ramon Wilson]

Hi Thomas,

Please note I've added a post script to my last post which you may not be aware of

Tug

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hi Thomas,

Please note I've added a post script to my last post which you may not be aware of

Tug

Hey again Tug,

I have been without power for over two hours is why I did not respond right away. Love living way out in the country but....

Yep, read what you had added. It is a chunk of metal all right and I have some foundation wire that I had planned to make some sort of "suspension" holder in the tub so that it does not hit the bottom.

I sure appreciate you experience and you help.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Brian Rupnow]

I have a small part of mild steel for the clutch I am building out for heat treat (case hardening) right now. The person who is looking after it for me is a master machinist with 40 years of experience. I asked him about the idea of me buying the Casenite and case hardening the part myself. He just laughed and said that the amount of depth from a home grown case hardening was very, very little, and not uniform. He sends batch lots of parts out for case hardening to a professional heat treat facility, and tells me that a home brewed case hardening didn't even come close to what would be acceptable. Anything I wanted hardened previous to this was made form 01 steel, heated orange/red and dropped in a container of oil, then 'drawn back' by heating in my wifes kitchen oven for a couple of hours at 350 degrees so it wouldn't be brittle. Not very professional at all, but it does work for me.

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

I have a small part of mild steel for the clutch I am building out for heat treat (case hardening) right now. The person who is looking after it for me is a master machinist with 40 years of experience. I asked him about the idea of me buying the Casenite and case hardening the part myself. He just laughed and said that the amount of depth from a home grown case hardening was very, very little, and not uniform. He sends batch lots of parts out for case hardening to a professional heat treat facility, and tells me that a home brewed case hardening didn't even come close to what would be acceptable. Anything I wanted hardened previous to this was made form 01 steel, heated orange/red and dropped in a container of oil, then 'drawn back' by heating in my wifes kitchen oven for a couple of hours at 350 degrees so it wouldn't be brittle. Not very professional at all, but it does work for me.

Hi Brian,


I am not expecting this to be diamond hard but do want to protect the face as much as possible from the home-brew method. I special ordered the punch and die on my last Press because of the size (3-foot x 20-ton) and the amount of use it was going to have and it was surely worth the extra money. In this case I wanted to make the Punch and Die myself.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Johnmcc69]

Any thoughts as to adding some pre-hardened inserts (0-1, H-13, ETC.) On to the faces of your forming tool? These could be screwed & doweled/pinned on using flat ground stock.

 John