Question about “heat treating” or “hardening” hot rolled A36 steel

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello everyone,

I have a question about “heat treating” or “hardening” hot rolled A36 steel flat bar (plate) and the proper process.

I am making a small Vertical Press and rather than ordering a Punch to my specifications, I have decided to make it myself. There is so much machining / milling to be done on this piece of flat bar I ordered A36 grade, and the size is 1" thick x 4" high x 12.7" long.

It is not absolutely necessary that the Punch be hardened because of the final use of this Press, but I would like to try and make it a little harder.

Does anybody have a tried and true method for hardening and quenching this size of A36?

Thanks for you help,
Thomas

[Ian S C]

A 36 is a mild steel, therefor not able to be hardened, but it can be case hardened.
Ian S C

[steamer]

Yes....the amazing thing about A36 is it's ability to not be hardened by any other method than case hardening.   It's a structural steel developed to have a great deal of ductility.

You can case harden it though....

Dave

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello steamer and Ian SC,

I should have made my question "case hardening", sorry about that.

I have questions about (the brand) Cherry Red case hardening compound and others including "home-brew" mixtures for case hardening.

Has anyone actually had success using any of these items / products / methods? I was hesitant in listing any brand names in my original question hoping to have someone state a particular brand or product.

What I have read and seen varies so much: success with an item and the next guy states "it does not work". Taking into consideration that each person performed the function correctly or not.

I was hoping that someone actually uses a process with good results on an item of the size that I am dealing with.

Thanks so much guys for the help and I apologize for not making my original question a bit more clear.

Have a great day,
confused Thomas

[Jasonb]

I'm not sure that you will gain much by case hardening a part like this as it is more to give a wear resistant surface but leave the core soft, if you are hardening to stop the part deforming due to the forces of the press then case hardening is not the way to go.

I've not tried the brands you mention but have used a couple of makes available in the UK and they work well giving a surface that a file will skid off but the part does not become brittle.

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

I'm not sure that you will gain much by case hardening a part like this as it is more to give a wear resistant surface but leave the core soft, if you are hardening to stop the part deforming due to the forces of the press then case hardening is not the way to go.

I've not tried the brands you mention but have used a couple of makes available in the UK and they work well giving a surface that a file will skid off but the part does not become brittle.

Hello Jasonb

In this case the core is not important, what I would like is to “harden” just the face/edge/or bottom 1" that makes up the “V” of the punch. That portion that makes contact with the material that is being bent to shape. In other words, like the leading edge of a knife. No other portion of the punch needs to be any harder.

The brand that you used, was the process as follows: 1)heat to critical, 2)apply the product, 3)reheat to critical, 4)immerse in water (or oil), 5)remove and let air cool to ambient.

Thanks for the info and help,
Thomas

[Mcgyver]

the diy stuff works but the depth of case is small, a few thou.  The depth of case is a function of the soak times, and of all the case hardening methods this is the least effective insofar as depth is concerned.  The hardness will be the same as a deeper case, but it will be very thin meaning the part will easily bruise.   On model engine parts I've done 2 or three cycles, I also casehardened a set of BA and ME nut drivers I made, it worked very well. 

Another approach is send it out to a heat treat, they'll soak it overnight and get the thickness up - as much as 50 thou.  If you chat them up you can usually get your work thrown in a batch for small dollars.  The other thing with this is that you can do it stages - get the soak done but not quenched. say drill and tap a bunch of holes, then get it heat treated and then grind.  The result is a dead hard surface but none of the threads are hardened (you don't want hardened threads).  The skin is usually left dead hard btw, sometimes an advantage over hardening tool steel and tempering it.  I've done this for tool makers blocks, that sort of thing.  Works very well,

The other way is DIY pack casehardening, you'll get a depth between the two, but its a lot of work (and potential smell).  Really only worth it imo if you are shooting for the attractive colour mottled finish (a highlight of quality old tools by Starrett, Lufkin and highly sought after by the gun people).

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

the diy stuff works but the depth of case is small, a few thou.  The depth of case is a function of the soak times, and of all the case hardening methods this is the least effective insofar as depth is concerned.  The hardness will be the same as a deeper case, but it will be very thin meaning the part will easily bruise.   On model engine parts I've done 2 or three cycles, I also casehardened a set of BA and ME nut drivers I made, it worked very well. 

Another approach is send it out to a heat treat, they'll soak it overnight and get the thickness up - as much as 50 thou.  If you chat them up you can usually get your work thrown in a batch for small dollars.  The other thing with this is that you can do it stages - get the soak done but not quenched. say drill and tap a bunch of holes, then get it heat treated and then grind.  The result is a dead hard surface but none of the threads are hardened (you don't want hardened threads).  The skin is usually left dead hard btw, sometimes an advantage over hardening tool steel and tempering it.  I've done this for tool makers blocks, that sort of thing.  Works very well,

The other way is DIY pack casehardening, you'll get a depth between the two, but its a lot of work (and potential smell).  Really only worth it imo if you are shooting for the attractive colour mottled finish (a highlight of quality old tools by Starrett, Lufkin and highly sought after by the gun people).

Hello Mcgyver,

A few thousandths would work OK, I'm just thinking about protecting the face area where the material touches the punch. The closest place to have it treated is almost a 2-hour drive from here and I have no idea of the cost.

Thanks for the help,
Thomas

[Stuart]

Don’t forget with a case hardened piece you can reheat it and let it cool slowly and it will have a soft skin , hest it back to cherry and quench and it will be hard again

Stuart

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Don’t forget with a case hardened piece you can reheat it and let it cool slowly and it will have a soft skin , hest it back to cherry and quench and it will be hard again

Stuart

Hello Stuart,

Thanks for this help.

I spoke with a fellow today at a heat treating company (they do not do small pieces like I have) and he told me that the "old fashion" way would do all that I needed. Just heat it to critical and water quench. He told me that some of the "products" do work but I would not gain that much if any for my application.

Thank you again and have a great day,
Thomas

[Mcgyver]

he told me that the "old fashion" way would do all that I needed. Just heat it to critical and water quench. He told me that some of the "products" do work but I would not gain that much if any for my application.

??? thats either only part of the discussion or he was pulling your leg.  A36 won't hardened from heating and quenching (well ok, a stickler might argue it does a small wee bit if quenched in freezing brine, but for practical purposes it doesn't).  Perhaps he was assuming you had a bit of tool steel.....or was it assumed "it" already had a soak and had the high carbon skin?

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello everyone,

Well I am pretty sure that I will not be putting any tool & die maker out of a job real soon, but I am very pleased with the way the Punch has turned out. Putting a gauge on the contact surface, from one end to the other end it is only off by .001". Now my plan is to do a simple case hardening of just that area below the “cut outs” on either end. That area that will come in contact with the material that is being bent to shape. I have three ½" holes to drill in the Punch and then it will be ready for case hardening.

I will use this Press when completed to bend several parts that will go on the Buggy.

Thanks again to all those folks that took the time to offer some good advice about case hardening, it is always much appreciated. 

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Stuart]

now country to how you should do it here's my method  part is cold dip it in water then into the powder ,then heat to a cherry red LBSC would have said carrot colour hold for  I min per inch thick then quench


the accepted method is to get ist red hot then dip it into the powder but IMHO that way contaminates your power

I have some old casenite stuff NON H&S as it contains cynanide but it will do a good job

Have fun but be safe

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

now country to how you should do it here's my method  part is cold dip it in water then into the powder ,then heat to a cherry red LBSC would have said carrot colour hold for  I min per inch thick then quench


the accepted method is to get ist red hot then dip it into the powder but IMHO that way contaminates your power

I have some old casenite stuff NON H&S as it contains cynanide but it will do a good job

Have fun but be safe

Hello Stuart,

OK and thanks a lot. You are the first to actually give me a "brand" and a procedure" that is in use (by you). Kasenite is not available any longer ( I am fairly sure ) here in the US and Cherry Red is supposed to be the one that replaced it. However Cherry Red is not the same compound so I am not sure how it compares to Kasenite.

I do understand what you are saying about contaminate the powder in the container. One video that I watched, the operated removed a portion from the container and spread it out on some clean steel plate, he then laid his "part" on the powder and poured more over his part.

Thanks so much for sharing your procedure, I appreciate a first hand experience.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Stuart]

There are lots of old school methods

About 60 years ago a friend of my dads ( both passed now ) made very very good 2 1/2 gauge locos and I mead rivet perfect ( this is before cars were common and locos were taken to the track on the back of a motor bike )

Anyway back to the plot he case hardened all the motion and the polished it to a good finish , he used to pack the part in a tin (baccy tin for the small bits ) with bone meal ( ground up animal bone used for garden fertiliser ) and put it in the coal fire before bedtime ,fetched it out in the morning , reheated it to red and quenched this gave it a long soak to get the carbon it

Leather also works , as does any thing that has carbon in it

But times were tough then some cheaper method were used , but a good old powder mix was better


Btw I was a young 11 years old then but  I had been interested in making stuff before then

[bent]

The 8 hour soak is one I remember as well, and an overnight soak in a damped fire was the method Dad used...

This was always a good reference, but there is also a fair bit of info. in Machinery's Handbook on the hardenability of steel.  A36 is pretty close to 1018 in hardenability.
https://www.emjmetals.com/pdf_indexer/pdfs/Mechanical_Properties_and_Hardenability.pdf

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

There are lots of old school methods

About 60 years ago a friend of my dads ( both passed now ) made very very good 2 1/2 gauge locos and I mead rivet perfect ( this is before cars were common and locos were taken to the track on the back of a motor bike )

Anyway back to the plot he case hardened all the motion and the polished it to a good finish , he used to pack the part in a tin (baccy tin for the small bits ) with bone meal ( ground up animal bone used for garden fertiliser ) and put it in the coal fire before bedtime ,fetched it out in the morning , reheated it to red and quenched this gave it a long soak to get the carbon it

Leather also works , as does any thing that has carbon in it

But times were tough then some cheaper method were used , but a good old powder mix was better


Btw I was a young 11 years old then but  I had been interested in making stuff before then

Hey again Stuart,

Well I am 77 years old and still do a lot of things the "ole fashion way", and it still seems to work. Back in the day when nobody had any money to speak of, we sure did get a lot of "stuff" done because we worked hard and really cared about the work we did. My daddy would come up out of his grave and give me a good thump on the head if I did not try my very best at whatever task I was doing.

Again I thank you so very much for your help.

Have a super great day,
Thomas

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

The 8 hour soak is one I remember as well, and an overnight soak in a damped fire was the method Dad used...

This was always a good reference, but there is also a fair bit of info. in Machinery's Handbook on the hardenability of steel.  A36 is pretty close to 1018 in hardenability.
https://www.emjmetals.com/pdf_indexer/pdfs/Mechanical_Properties_and_Hardenability.pdf

Hello Bent,

Thanks for the pdf.Chart I have saved it to my file. I forgot to tell Stuart that I have heard of people using bonemeal and leather in a soak.

Just finished drilling the 3-holes in the Punch and after lunch will drill the two side plates.

Thanks for the info and have a great day,
Thomas

[Admiral_dk]

It's a bit strange that you don't get more useful replies as there has been quite a bit about hardening various steels over the years on this site ....    I don't know if you ask about a steel type that isn't considered useful in this sense or what - but you could try to search this place ....

Best wishes

Per

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello Per,

I was a bit surprised that a lot people did not offer their own formula for case hardening. However, I am comfortable with the basic concept, I just have not decided weather or not to use the Cherry Red brand. I have several more days of work on the press so I have plenty of time.

Thanks for you interest and have a great day,
Thomas

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello everyone,

I welded up the Punch Beam this morning and I used some .0285 wire on both sides of the Punch as spacers from the Side Plates. This allows the easy removal of the Punch to be repaired or replaced if needed. On final assembly I will coat both sides of the Punch with a heavy layer of Anti-Seize Compound to ensure that it can be removed at any time. The 3rd photo is a first assembly of the Press parts completed to date, with the Punch not installed. The last photo shows the first pass on milling the Die.

I decided to use the brand “Cherry Red” powder when I case harden the Punch and will post the procedure and the results.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Ramon Wilson]

Hello Thomas - I have been AWOL for a while and have only just read your thread.

I have had a fair bit of experience in heat treating tool steels and have done a small amount of case hardening - this is both at work and play.

With case hardening as has been said the longer the part is in contact with the product - Kasenite, Cherry Red, bone meal etc etc the deeper the 'skin' of the hardened surface. To have anything considered effective this would need to be held at temp for some time - hence the advice of packing the part and material in a container and soaking over night in a fire.

Given however you just wish to put a hard surface on the the following should give you what you need.

Put some of the Cherry Red powder into a container that the part can be placed in. Heat the part to a good bright red and lay the part into the powder turning it to coat it where you want the hardness. Remove and reheat letting the heat really soak into the part - lay it back in the powder and repeat. It is a hot and smelly process and the part takes on a pretty miserable looking surface blistered and misshapen. That will disappear as soon as you quench it. 

Keep the heat up and when you are satisfied that you've given it enough treatment quench it - quickly - in clean and quite cold water. I stress that as it's important to get a good result. As said you need to plunge the part into the water really quickly and if Cherry Red responds the same as Kasenite you will hear a sharp crack as it hardens. If you find it has not hardened then reheat to a slightly hotter temperature but importantly change the water - as clean cold water will always give you the best results

Hope that is of help to you - it should give you what you are wanting.

Regards - Tug

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello Thomas - I have been AWOL for a while and have only just read your thread.

I have had a fair bit of experience in heat treating tool steels and have done a small amount of case hardening - this is both at work and play.

With case hardening as has been said the longer the part is in contact with the product - Kasenite, Cherry Red, bone meal etc etc the deeper the 'skin' of the hardened surface. To have anything considered effective this would need to be held at temp for some time - hence the advice of packing the part and material in a container and soaking over night in a fire.

Given however you just wish to put a hard surface on the the following should give you what you need.

Put some of the Cherry Red powder into a container that the part can be placed in. Heat the part to a good bright red and lay the part into the powder turning it to coat it where you want the hardness. Remove and reheat letting the heat really soak into the part - lay it back in the powder and repeat. It is a hot and smelly process and the part takes on a pretty miserable looking surface blistered and misshapen. That will disappear as soon as you quench it. 

Keep the heat up and when you are satisfied that you've given it enough treatment quench it - quickly - in clean and quite cold water. I stress that as it's important to get a good result. As said you need to plunge the part into the water really quickly and if Cherry Red responds the same as Kasenite you will hear a sharp crack as it hardens. If you find it has not hardened then reheat to a slightly hotter temperature but importantly change the water - as clean cold water will always give you the best results

Hope that is of help to you - it should give you what you are wanting.

Regards - Tug

Hello Tug,

This is exactly the first hand advise that I was hoping to get...thank you.

One question if you do not mind, I was told that a long pre-heat (like in an oven) at 350 to 400f for 4-plus hours prior to the Critical Heating and application would also be of help. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks again,
Thomas

[Ramon Wilson]

Hi again Thomas,

I cannot see that that would make any difference on 'home' methods other than to stress relieve the part. If you have made it from hot rolled steel as you state as opposed to CRS then what little stress that may be in the part should dissipate in the heat treatment.

Something I would add however is that whilst as said it's best to plunge the part into the water as quickly as possible it needs to be as 'evenly as possible' to eliminate any chances of uneven/unequal cooling creating distortion.

Good luck with your project

Regards - Tug


Thomas - I originally read your post before logging in - ergo did not see your images and had misread your 12.7" as mm. I have just realised what you have

That is a very big piece of material and much larger than anything I have done. To achieve what you want I'm sure this would be better to be done in an oven, the part held in a suitable container that holds the powder - I would envisage with the blade standing upright with its lower forming edge deep in the powder. The whole lot heated and left to soak for some time - it's going to be one big very hot piece to quench so make sure the water container is plenty big enough so that the quenching does not heat the water too quickly - at that thickness I would just let it 'drop in' vertically - preferably with some wire mesh in the container to prevent the part laying flat on the bottom and shielding one side from cooling quicker than the other.

Like I said Good Luck - that is a big bit of metal

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hi again Thomas,

I cannot see that that would make any difference on 'home' methods other than to stress relieve the part. If you have made it from hot rolled steel as you state as opposed to CRS then what little stress that may be in the part should dissipate in the heat treatment.

Something I would add however is that whilst as said it's best to plunge the part into the water as quickly as possible it needs to be as 'evenly as possible' to eliminate any chances of uneven/unequal cooling creating distortion.

Good luck with your project

Regards - Tug

Hello Tug,

Thank you for this information and all your help. Actually that is a bit of good news because that is one less step in the process that I need to be concerned with.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Ramon Wilson]

Hi Thomas,

Please note I've added a post script to my last post which you may not be aware of

Tug

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hi Thomas,

Please note I've added a post script to my last post which you may not be aware of

Tug

Hey again Tug,

I have been without power for over two hours is why I did not respond right away. Love living way out in the country but....

Yep, read what you had added. It is a chunk of metal all right and I have some foundation wire that I had planned to make some sort of "suspension" holder in the tub so that it does not hit the bottom.

I sure appreciate you experience and you help.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Brian Rupnow]

I have a small part of mild steel for the clutch I am building out for heat treat (case hardening) right now. The person who is looking after it for me is a master machinist with 40 years of experience. I asked him about the idea of me buying the Casenite and case hardening the part myself. He just laughed and said that the amount of depth from a home grown case hardening was very, very little, and not uniform. He sends batch lots of parts out for case hardening to a professional heat treat facility, and tells me that a home brewed case hardening didn't even come close to what would be acceptable. Anything I wanted hardened previous to this was made form 01 steel, heated orange/red and dropped in a container of oil, then 'drawn back' by heating in my wifes kitchen oven for a couple of hours at 350 degrees so it wouldn't be brittle. Not very professional at all, but it does work for me.

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

I have a small part of mild steel for the clutch I am building out for heat treat (case hardening) right now. The person who is looking after it for me is a master machinist with 40 years of experience. I asked him about the idea of me buying the Casenite and case hardening the part myself. He just laughed and said that the amount of depth from a home grown case hardening was very, very little, and not uniform. He sends batch lots of parts out for case hardening to a professional heat treat facility, and tells me that a home brewed case hardening didn't even come close to what would be acceptable. Anything I wanted hardened previous to this was made form 01 steel, heated orange/red and dropped in a container of oil, then 'drawn back' by heating in my wifes kitchen oven for a couple of hours at 350 degrees so it wouldn't be brittle. Not very professional at all, but it does work for me.

Hi Brian,


I am not expecting this to be diamond hard but do want to protect the face as much as possible from the home-brew method. I special ordered the punch and die on my last Press because of the size (3-foot x 20-ton) and the amount of use it was going to have and it was surely worth the extra money. In this case I wanted to make the Punch and Die myself.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Johnmcc69]

Any thoughts as to adding some pre-hardened inserts (0-1, H-13, ETC.) On to the faces of your forming tool? These could be screwed & doweled/pinned on using flat ground stock.

 John

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Any thoughts as to adding some pre-hardened inserts (0-1, H-13, ETC.) On to the faces of your forming tool? These could be screwed & doweled/pinned on using flat ground stock.

 John

Hello John,

Most likely the only time that would really need a hard surface on the Punch is when I bend a round or hex piece of stock out of something like stainless. In cases like this what I have done in the past is use two pieces of stainless angle. I make up a set for the Press that they will be used on. For the Die, I machine a clean round corner on the outside edge that will sit in the "V" of the Die so as not to mark it. For the Punch piece, I also machine the outside edge but only enough to fit inside the Die piece. It is a bit awkward to hold the Punch piece in place until it makes contact with the part being bent, but it does work. I have used this same method on several Presses with good results.

On this new Press, most everything that I will be bending will be flat stock of aluminum or brass for a steam engine so not very likely to do any harm to the Punch or Die that I am making now.

Thank you for the suggestion and have a great day,
Thomas

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello everyone,

Got the first coat of primer on some of the parts even though there will be a little more welding needed on them.

Started the process of rough milling the Die which is a slow process with a lot of material to be removed. The Die blank is 2-inches wide by 1-3/4-inches high by 12-inches long and being held horizontal in the vise.

Next step was to set the Die blank at a 45 degree angle to do the final milling of the “V” opening. I used my Dial Indicator to establish an exact level position of the Die to the Mill table and used two c-clamps to hold everything in place prior to tack welding. Then I tacked welded the Die on each end to the angle iron to hold it in place while being milled. This assembly was then placed in the vise and the level re-checked with the Dial Indicator prior to any more milling. Now it is just a matter of removing the remaining material to form the “V” opening.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Mcgyver]

Started the process of rough milling the Die which is a slow process with a lot of material to be removed. The Die blank is 2-inches wide by 1-3/4-inches high by 12-inches long

That would be a large piece to quench, more than I would want to do.   You have to prepared for the material to move on a heat treatment which is why stuff is usually ground afterward.  Small solid shapes are more stable, but that longer shape carries some risk of moving about imo.  For brass and AL I'd skip heat treating, safer and no warping.  You'll bend a lot of material before wearing it appreciably and even if you did you can resurface.   If you are really worried about a wear, I'd make it out some prehardened chrome moly - tough and somewhat hard but still machinable

Second point, whats the angle in the bottom die?  it looks like 90.  Most of the time in a brake you're air bending and the bottom die has to be less than 90.  the material doesn't really contact the sides of the bottom die and you over bend to account for spring.  Maybe you're an experienced press hand and i'm telling the choir how to sing...but if not, it'll save you some pain.  With an air bend, much less force is required and afaik the most common approach, vs coining or bottom bending.  Bend radius is a function of material, bottom die width and top die radius.   You also need a radius at the top the V on the bottom die finished to very smooth surface - that's where material will get pulled over the die and that soft stuff will easily scratch

Incidentally you can fabricate a bottom die with round bar welde to the top of V block like shapes made of 1/2 plate every few inches.  We've done that to get special jobs done.   If you used tompson shafting or such you'd start with the bend surface hard and smooth.  Probably how i'd go at it.


EDIT, for what its worth the above is from experience with steel, I've only done AL and brass in a finger brake, so perhaps I'm not the best one to advise on AL/brass die design....but thats what works with steel

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Started the process of rough milling the Die which is a slow process with a lot of material to be removed. The Die blank is 2-inches wide by 1-3/4-inches high by 12-inches long

That would be a large piece to quench, more than I would want to do.   You have to prepared for the material to move on a heat treatment which is why stuff is usually ground afterward.  Small solid shapes are more stable, but that longer shape carries some risk of moving about imo.  For brass and AL I'd skip heat treating, safer and no warping.  You'll bend a lot of material before wearing it appreciably and even if you did you can resurface.   If you are really worried about a wear, I'd make it out some prehardened chrome moly - tough and somewhat hard but still machinable

Second point, whats the angle in the bottom die?  it looks like 90.  Most of the time in a brake you're air bending and the bottom die has to be less than 90.  the material doesn't really contact the sides of the bottom die and you over bend to account for spring.  Maybe you're an experienced press hand and i'm telling the choir how to sing...but if not, it'll save you some pain.  With an air bend, much less force is required and afaik the most common approach, vs coining or bottom bending.  Bend radius is a function of material, bottom die width and top die radius.   You also need a radius at the top the V on the bottom die finished to very smooth surface - that's where material will get pulled over the die and that soft stuff will easily scratch

Incidentally you can fabricate a bottom die with round bar welde to the top of V block like shapes made of 1/2 plate every few inches.  We've done that to get special jobs done.   If you used tompson shafting or such you'd start with the bend surface hard and smooth.  Probably how i'd go at it.


EDIT, for what its worth the above is from experience with steel, I've only done AL and brass in a finger brake, so perhaps I'm not the best one to advise on AL/brass die design....but thats what works with steel

Hello Mcgyver,

Thank you for this information. Over the years I have designed and built a number of Presses and I am using the term “Press” to define a vertical press that uses a Punch and Die. I have also owned and operated a number of commercially manufactured Presses. However I have never made from scratch either the Punch or Die and on this project I just wanted to make both parts rather than order them pre-made. I am now retired and this small Press will be used in my home hobby shop.

You are correct about the shape of the “V”, in as much it is a 90-degree. I designed the Die based on industry standards and the opening is 1-1/2-inches. Whereas the Punch is 1-inch thus making all the bends up to and including 1/4-inch thick material, requiring less force. The shoulders on the “V” will have a 1/4" radius when completed.

Here are two examples of bending a piece of material 4-inches wide, by 3/16-thick (.1875) and with a PSI yield of 33,000:

Force required to bend 90-degrees;
example #1   
1" Punch and a 1" Die = 6,379.81 pounds
example #2
1" Punch and a 1-1/2" Die = 4,120.88 pounds

I used the standard formula for the “perfect die opening” for this project, however I had to take into account that I cannot make a Die for every thickness of material that I will bend. Example, (based on my machine use) for 3/16-inch thick material the “perfect die width” would be 1.2860-inches. Knowing that the maximum thickness of material that I will every bend with this machine will be 1/4-inch, I elected to use the 1-1/2" V-width. The perfect die width for 1/4-inch is actually 1.7147-inches but I also took into account that over 95% of the material that I will be bending will be 3/16-inch or less and have a yield of less than 33,000 pounds. As you can understand, I had to make some compromise for this small Press.

Again, I do appreciate all your help and have a great day.
Thomas

[Mcgyver]

Hi Thomas,

I was just playing with Cincinnati calculator (https://www.e-ci.com/press-brake-tonnage-load-calculator/)  and those tonnage calcs look a little light in comparison but I'm following what you saying.   The cinci calculator is for air bending and is close but a little higher than your numbers.  Bottom or coin bending will take 4x the force or more, so am I safe in assuming your numbers are based on an air bend?

What I was getting as is to get a 90 degree bend with air bending, you net to  bend past 90 (it springs back to 90) so the bottom die V opening is always less than 90 degrees.   

btw, the DIY bottom die I was trying to describe is sketched below.  Its a bit 'quick and dirty' compared to your design which is more solid and how commercial dies look, but it does make for a ready made smooth and hardening opening radius if you use hardened and ground shafting (thompson shafting).  Yours is tradition die shape and probably the right way to do it, just offering this up as an another approach.

Mike

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hi Thomas,

I was just playing with Cincinnati calculator (https://www.e-ci.com/press-brake-tonnage-load-calculator/)  and those tonnage calcs look a little light in comparison but I'm following what you saying.   The cinci calculator is for air bending and is close but a little higher than your numbers.  Bottom or coin bending will take 4x the force or more, so am I safe in assuming your numbers are based on an air bend?

What I was getting as is to get a 90 degree bend with air bending, you net to  bend past 90 (it springs back to 90) so the bottom die V opening is always less than 90 degrees.   

btw, the DIY bottom die I was trying to describe is sketched below.  Its a bit 'quick and dirty' compared to your design which is more solid and how commercial dies look, but it does make for a ready made smooth and hardening opening radius if you use hardened and ground shafting (thompson shafting).  Yours is tradition die shape and probably the right way to do it, just offering this up as an another approach.

Mike

Hey again Mike,

There are so many variables when it comes to "air bending" of any plates and there are a lot of differences in the calculations between a "Brake" and a "Press". If you would look at Wilson Punch and Die and their American Standard Dies under 4-inch, you will note that 90-degrees is the "standard". Almost all manufactures offer various degree of openings. The buyer's end use will dictate if a degree of greater or less is needed for their day to day application. My last Press was a 3-foot, 20-ton and I ordered an 85-degree opening for the Die because I was only bending 5052 Marine Grade aluminum.

You are very good at drawing to scale and the attached drawing looks really nice. Draw an end view of my Die to scale and also the Punch to scale. Then create several drawings using these subjects and use 1/16" thick in one, 1/8" in the second, 3/16" in the third and finally a 1/4" thick plate. Make the Punch go all the way to the bottom of the Die less the thickness of that subject and then note the angle of the bent material. You will see that using the same Punch and Die offer different results on each test subject. This is why I had stated that I had to make a compromise when I am only using one set of Punch and Dies. A fabricator in Nacogdoches that I used when I was still in business had a 250-ton 14-foot CNC Press ($350,000.00 cost) and they had almost equal that cost tied up in Punch and Die sets and that did not represent a full set.

For bending items for my little steam engines and several items for my Buggy project, I believe the Press that I am now making should do OK.

Again I truly appreciate your interest and suggestions and for following along. Hopefully I can complete the Press by next week sometime and we will see how it turns out.

I would guess that the leaves have already begun to change colors in your neck of the woods.
Have a great day,
Thomas

[Mcgyver]

Please keep the pics coming.  I still cannot see you could get an air bend of 90 without the bottom die being less than 90, but you seem well in control so I look forward learning how it all comes together. 

There seem some slight differences in nomenclature, around here everyone it calls this a press brake and the dies are commonly called upper and lower, vs. die and punch.  I think you are more technically correct, I just mention it in case it created confusion; me using the local vernacular.

Here's a shot of my brakes, press and finger....big one at the plant and little I made in the garage.    If I had one, I like the small hydraulic press idea like you are making....much more capacity than the finger brake I made.  The big one is a 16' 300 ton cinci, I've used it but mostly the guys keep me away from it.....they have the impression that anyone from the office will surely destroy it if given half a chance

cheers

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Please keep the pics coming.  I still cannot see you could get an air bend of 90 without the bottom die being less than 90, but you seem well in control so I look forward learning how it all comes together. 

There seem some slight differences in nomenclature, around here everyone it calls this a press brake and the dies are commonly called upper and lower, vs. die and punch.  I think you are more technically correct, I just mention it in case it created confusion; me using the local vernacular.

Here's a shot of my brakes, press and finger....big one at the plant and little I made in the garage.    If I had one, I like the small hydraulic press idea like you are making....much more capacity than the finger brake I made.  The big one is a 16' 300 ton cinci, I've used it but mostly the guys keep me away from it.....they have the impression that anyone from the office will surely destroy it if given half a chance

cheers

Hello again Mike,

Originally (or a long time ago) a Press was like your big machine and a Brake was like your second machine. Actually your second machine was called a Pan Box Brake because it had individual "blades", "fingers" or "whatever" and this machine could form a Pan (as in a pan for water, etc.) or Box (as in a shoe box including a lid). All sheet metal shops had a Pan Box Brake. For whatever reason now days both pieces of equipment are called Press Brake? I am so old that it is hard for me to find an item in the Yellow Pages in a phone book...he he

You have done a beautiful job on the "Pan Box Brake", what size is it and what variation of blades/finger sizes are there.

I am attaching two photos of Presses that I built several years ago. The first one is a small 4-ton used mainly to bend stainless steel round rod. Note that the Punch is stationary and that the Die moves up toward the Punch. The second is a 3-foot by 20-ton Air over Hydraulic and is the one that I mentioned earlier.

Have a great day,
Thomas

PS, the 4-ton has a sticker Webee Mfg, which is a company that I use to own

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello everyone,

Finally after almost 3 days chewing on that hunk of steel, the Die is now completed. Making the “V” opening requires to remove almost 1/4 of the material in that bar.
Photo #1, showing inside of the “V” after milling is completed
Photo #2, I used a 1/8" ball end mill to mill a relief in the bottom center of the “V”
Photo #3, Punch and Die with a dollar bill to show size (penny no good here)
Photo #4, Inside view of the completed “V”
Photo #5, Assembly of the parts that are completed with the Punch and Die

This might seem like a lot of work, but this is the first time that I have made a Punch and a Die and it has been fun and a great learning experience. Neither one are perfect but I am very satisfied with the way they turned out.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[bent]

Hmm.  All that work just to fold a dollar bill? 

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hmm.  All that work just to fold a dollar bill? 

OK if I am really lucky it will fold a five-dollar bill 

I am threading the guide rods now, so some assembly may start as early as tomorrow.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello everyone,
   
Ugly as a mud fence right now with all the different colors and fresh welding soot but the Press is now assembled and working. I will take it all apart do a good cleaning and apply more primer and then apply the final coats of paint. While it is apart I might shorten the guide rods to close the “normal open” position by at least one-inch. Next photos will be when all the paint has dried.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[crueby]

Looks great!
We'd each like one...!

[bent]

Dunno, I kind of like the multi-colored approach.  Keeps it easier when talking to the shop assistants - "hand me that thingamajig.  No, the purple one"

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Looks great!
We'd each like one...!

Hello Chris,

I'm telling you, it is as handy as a pocket on a shirt, every shop really does need one.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Dunno, I kind of like the multi-colored approach.  Keeps it easier when talking to the shop assistants - "hand me that thingamajig.  No, the purple one"

Hello Bent,

Well the correct request would be, hand me that Blue thingy. However not sure you could just hand it, haven't weighted it yet but think it will be over 70 pounds.  It is now all apart and the first coat of Blue has been applied and have the shop windows open to let it dry.

Cannot paint the Punch (less the "V") until I do the case hardening which will be next week.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello everyone,

Well I am pretty sure that you will not walk into your local Walgreens Drug Store and find one of these sitting on a shelf. I just calculated the weigh (+ or - a pound) and it comes it at 92-pounds. 

Have a great day,
Thomas

[crueby]

Looks great!
We'd each like one...!

Hello Chris,

I'm telling you, it is as handy as a pocket on a shirt, every shop really does need one.

Have a great day,
Thomas

Dang, guess that means I can't get one, I wear pocket-less T-shirts!   

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello everyone,

Well I thought the next photos would be of the completed Press, however I had forgotten to make the Top Brace. So the first item to be bent to shape with the Press turned out to be a part for the Press. It is a piece of 1/4" thick by 2" wide flat bar with three bends and two of them are reverse bends. As you can see, it made the bends with no problem and not much effort/force on the jack handle. The large heavy duty extension springs worked perfect and holds the heavy Punch Beam and Punch in the up position when not in use.

Now a little more welding and clean up then more paint and it should be completed by this afternoon.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Kim]

Looks like it certainly performed well for its first part!

So, what does the top brace do?  It doesn't look like it adds rigidity or strength to the press. Are you going to attach it to the wall or something to keep the press from tipping over?

Sure looks nice Thomas!
Kim

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Looks like it certainly performed well for its first part!

So, what does the top brace do?  It doesn't look like it adds rigidity or strength to the press. Are you going to attach it to the wall or something to keep the press from tipping over?

Sure looks nice Thomas!
Kim

Hello Kim,

The top brace is not complete in that photo. I have added a piece of 3/4" 1018 steel round bar vertically in the very center from the Head Beam to the inside of the inverted "V" of the top brace. This acts like a truss and adds a bit more strength to the Head Beam. Although it really is not needed, but it is a part of my original design so I am using it. I could install a 10-ton bottle jack and it would not overload the design.

The base legs (16" long each) and the weight of the Press held it securely in place while I was making the first bend. I do have holes drilled in the legs so it can be mounted if needed.

Thanks Kim and have a great weekend.
Thomas

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hello everyone,

OK guys and gals the Press is now completed and ready for some serious work. Case hardening the Punch might get delayed a bit because I am anxious to get back to work on the Buggy. The first 3 bends that I made with the Press shows no sign of wear or marks on the Punch but just a little on the shoulders on the Die. I can remove the Die anytime that I need to and clean up any marks. I am very pleased with the way it has turned out, looks good and operates great. I will make a stand for it when I have the time, it is to dog-gone heavy to try and move. I have made several Presses over the years but this one, in my opinion, is the perfect shop Press.

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and for following along on this project.

Have a great day,
Thomas

[Kim]

Looks like it certainly performed well for its first part!

So, what does the top brace do?  It doesn't look like it adds rigidity or strength to the press. Are you going to attach it to the wall or something to keep the press from tipping over?

Sure looks nice Thomas!
Kim

Hello Kim,

The top brace is not complete in that photo. I have added a piece of 3/4" 1018 steel round bar vertically in the very center from the Head Beam to the inside of the inverted "V" of the top brace. This acts like a truss and adds a bit more strength to the Head Beam. Although it really is not needed, but it is a part of my original design so I am using it. I could install a 10-ton bottle jack and it would not overload the design.

The base legs (16" long each) and the weight of the Press held it securely in place while I was making the first bend. I do have holes drilled in the legs so it can be mounted if needed.

Thanks Kim and have a great weekend.
Thomas

Thanks for the explanation Thomas. It makes perfect sense.  The next set of pictures shows it quite well.

Certainly is a nice tool, and one you can be proud of!
Kim