Author Topic: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage  (Read 29301 times)

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #315 on: April 09, 2019, 12:47:25 AM »
Looking amazing - you will be taking the shop elves up to the hardware store in it in no time!

Hello Chris,

Thank you, I just hope that I get it completed before I forget how to drive. My "to do list" is now about four times longer than when I started this project :thinking: I wish that I had your wood working skills and the required tools to do all of the body work.

Have a great day,
Thomas

Offline crueby

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #316 on: April 09, 2019, 12:50:57 AM »
Looking amazing - you will be taking the shop elves up to the hardware store in it in no time!

Hello Chris,

Thank you, I just hope that I get it completed before I forget how to drive. My "to do list" is now about four times longer than when I started this project :thinking: I wish that I had your wood working skills and the required tools to do all of the body work.

Have a great day,
Thomas
I can help out with wood parts, have a shop full of brown-stuff tools and decades of practice with them... That era car is mainly flat panel bodywork, aren't they? Got plans?

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #317 on: April 09, 2019, 01:19:26 AM »
Looking amazing - you will be taking the shop elves up to the hardware store in it in no time!

Hello Chris,

Thank you, I just hope that I get it completed before I forget how to drive. My "to do list" is now about four times longer than when I started this project :thinking: I wish that I had your wood working skills and the required tools to do all of the body work.

Have a great day,
Thomas
I can help out with wood parts, have a shop full of brown-stuff tools and decades of practice with them... That era car is mainly flat panel bodywork, aren't they? Got plans?

Hey again Chris,

First off man you are too busy even with all you slaves elves....

Yes, almost all panels are flat. What I have drawn up ( this may be to hard to explain ) for the skeleton will be made from ( just an example haven't drawn all to scale yet ) 2" x 3" routed round radius one corner / with a relief below the radius / a second relief on top beyond the corner. I plan to use a top grade plywood for the panels that will fit inside the reliefs. I will make a drawing as an example and convert to pdf to show you. I do not want the raw edge of the ply wood to show so just internal braces will not work so my "relief skeleton" will take care of that plus add the extra strength needed. Connecting the flat sides to the top is no big problem, however I have the two 45-degree angles up on the nose (front end) and most likely will have one at the rear. I am removing the large radius on the top rear as originally drawn and replace that with some sort of angles ( two 45's or one 60 & one 30, etc ). Then there are the two side opening panels for engine access and one on top, these will require a different "relief" design. Man if I don't have you completely confused by now  :noidea::ROFL:

Anyway I think you do understand what my intent is despite my poor description. Chris I truly do appreciate your offer and it would be an honor to work with you on a project. I need to make a mockup out of some plain plywood and then make up a final design of the skeleton.

If I was not hell-bent to stay close to the circa 1800's, then I could make this out of aluminum in a minute. Several years ago I made a replica of a 1915 Field 1-Ton Truck Cab and it was really neat.

Thanks again and have a great day,
Thomas

Offline crueby

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #318 on: April 09, 2019, 02:30:28 AM »
Thomas,  that makes perfect sense to me. I have made lots of furniture, rooms, boats, even restored horse drawn sleighs. Don't rule out panels with a curve in one axis, easy to build with thin ribs covered in flexible plywood. Compound curves are harder but doable. Marine ply and epoxy can build many shapes. Covering the edges is a great idea, adds strength too.

Oh, and extra projects are fun. Breaks up long projects with something new, and there is no hard deadline on the Marion, the build is the funnest part!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 02:33:44 AM by crueby »

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #319 on: April 09, 2019, 02:37:32 AM »
Thomas,  that makes perfect sense to me. I have made lots of furniture, rooms, boats, even restored horse drawn sleighs. Don't rule out panels with a curve in one axis, easy to build with thin ribs covered in flexible plywood. Compound curves are harder but doable. Marine ply and epoxy can build many shapes. Covering the edges is a great idea, adds strength too.

Oh, and extra projects are fun. Breaks up long projects with something new, and there is no hard deadline on the Marion, the build is the funnest part!

Hello Chris,

Give me a day or two to make up a rough drawing and I will upload here for you to look over. Again I am not a wood person so open to any and all suggestions.

Have a great day,
Thomas

Offline Kim

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #320 on: April 09, 2019, 05:12:14 AM »
The chassis is looking great, Thomas!
Can't wait to see the body take shape now.

Are you going to try driving it around without the body before you disassemble it?
Kim

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #321 on: April 09, 2019, 11:30:59 AM »
The chassis is looking great, Thomas!
Can't wait to see the body take shape now.

Are you going to try driving it around without the body before you disassemble it?
Kim

Hello Kim,

After I get all the bracket welding completed on the underside I will then reassemble everything. Then I will layout a temporary floorboard so that I can start installing all the control cables, peddles, steering components, and other required brackets. With all that completed I will lift the entire chassis off the floor onto stands so that a first test run can be done while checking all the controls. If all works OK, then it will be ready for a test run outdoors less the body. I really get excited every time I think about driving that thing around for the first time. I will get my buddy Paul over here to video this event.

Have a great day,
Thomas

Offline bent

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #322 on: April 09, 2019, 06:51:17 PM »
Keep up the good work Thomas! :popcorn:

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #323 on: April 09, 2019, 08:21:03 PM »
Nice progress on a very interesting project  :ThumbsUp:

Quote
My "to do list" is now about four times longer than when I started this project :thinking:

Oh man, that's how I feel  :-X  I really need an early retirement - unfortunately not something I can afford the next 9 years .....

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #324 on: April 09, 2019, 09:12:09 PM »
Hello Chris @crueby

I am attaching two pdf drawings and let me state that is by no means a final design, these drawings are just to give you a general idea of what I have been thinking about:  1) showing just the outline of the Body, front, side and rear views. I have removed all the round corners and shapes to make it simple, but this can be changed if needed. 2) At the very bottom is shown the actual chassis (steel frame) and then in Green is the Bottom Rail ( this would be a part of the wood skeleton ). Note that it sits directly on top of the chassis and the ½" thick plywood floorboard would sit on top. The side panels cover this area and is shown better in the second drawing. 3) Above the Panels at the top would be the Top Rail shown in Red. This too is better depicted in the second drawing. The 1-inch radius shown would be a part of the Top Rail. Note that the Deck (top of the body) would be flush with the Rail, whereas the Side Panels would be inset by 1/4-inch. 4) There would be vertical Stays along each side for added strength and horizontal Stays going side to side for added strength. 5) The Rails would be fairly easy to make ( good close-up cross section of each shown on the second drawing ), obviously the hard parts would be the transitions from the sides to the front and rear and the angled areas and the opening in the cockpit area. 6) If need be, the Body could be made in two sections with a visible vertical seam just aft of the cockpit and ahead of the service doors on each side, under the drivers butt. By the way, the driver is drawn to scale at 72" tall for a reference. 7) There will be a “raised” Hatch opening on the aft deck for access to the engine compartment.

Drawing #2, 8) The relief area along the face of the Rails (top and bottom) are shown to be ½" allowing a 1/4" thick piece of plywood to be inserted leaving an additional 1/4" of “inset”. I am assuming that the Panels would be held in place with “brads” or “staples” and a good glue. 9) I plan to make the Body Tabs from 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8 steel angle and cut them 2" long. They will be located all around the entire inside perimeter of the Chassis and not sure of the exact spacing at this time. 10) I am thinking about getting some 3" wide black tape (heavy duty like electrical tape) to lay down on top of the Chassis before bolting down the Bottom Rails to prevent any direct contact of wood to painted steel.

Hope this is enough for you to review and determine if this “Skeleton” is doable or not. Again, I am open to all suggestions.

One more thought I want to share with you. One of my original plans was to build the Body out of plywood and a conventional “stick” Skeleton and then cover the entire surface with several layers of a “cloth” fiber and then glass over (resin ). This would maintain the authentic appearance of an original 1800's Horseless Carriage, be super strong, fairly light weight and easy to build. The BIG downside would be the countless hours of sanding that dog-gone fiberglass to achieve the proper finish where no cloth would show in the paint. Your thoughts??

Have a great day,
Thomas
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 08:44:24 AM by Ye-Ole Steam Dude »

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #325 on: April 09, 2019, 09:17:32 PM »
Keep up the good work Thomas! :popcorn:

Hello Bent,

It is getting closer to needing that "test drivers bucket" that you have. I will need you to paint some racing flames on it... :ROFL:

have a great day,
Thomas

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #326 on: April 09, 2019, 09:22:18 PM »
Nice progress on a very interesting project  :ThumbsUp:

Quote
My "to do list" is now about four times longer than when I started this project :thinking:

Oh man, that's how I feel  :-X  I really need an early retirement - unfortunately not something I can afford the next 9 years .....

Hello Admiral_dk,

Let me warn you now about retiring, when you do you will find that you had more free time when you were employed  :lolb:

I was self employed and worked 24-7 but had all kinds of time for my hobbies, now I am always a month behind :facepalm:

Have a great day,
Thomas

Online Jo

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #327 on: April 10, 2019, 07:24:31 AM »
Let me warn you now about retiring, when you do you will find that you had more free time when you were employed  :lolb:

Too true   :facepalm:

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline crueby

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #328 on: April 10, 2019, 12:50:15 PM »
Hello Chris @crueby

I am attaching two pdf drawings and let me state that is by no means a final design, these drawings are just to give you a general idea of what I have been thinking about:  1) showing just the outline of the Body, front, side and rear views. I have removed all the round corners and shapes to make it simple, but this can be changed if needed. 2) At the very bottom is shown the actual chassis (steel frame) and then in Green is the Bottom Rail ( this would be a part of the wood skeleton ). Note that it sits directly on top of the chassis and the ½" thick plywood floorboard would sit on top. The side panels cover this area and is shown better in the second drawing. 3) Above the Panels at the top would be the Top Rail shown in Red. This too is better depicted in the second drawing. The 1-inch radius shown would be a part of the Top Rail. Note that the Deck (top of the body) would be flush with the Rail, whereas the Side Panels would be inset by 1/4-inch. 4) There would be vertical Stays along each side for added strength and horizontal Stays going side to side for added strength. 5) The Rails would be fairly easy to make ( good close-up cross section of each shown on the second drawing ), obviously the hard parts would be the transitions from the sides to the front and rear and the angled areas and the opening in the cockpit area. 6) If need be, the Body could be made in two sections with a visible vertical seam just aft of the cockpit and ahead of the service doors on each side, under the drivers butt. By the way, the driver is drawn to scale at 72" tall for a reference. 7) There will be a “raised” Hatch opening on the aft deck for access to the engine compartment.

Drawing #2, 8) The relief area along the face of the Rails (top and bottom) are shown to be ½" allowing a 1/4" thick piece of plywood to be inserted leaving an additional 1/4" of “inset”. I am assuming that the Panels would be held in place with “brads” or “staples” and a good glue. 9) I plan to make the Body Tabs from 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8 steel angle and cut them 2" long. They will be located all around the entire inside perimeter of the Chassis and not sure of the exact spacing at this time. 10) I am thinking about getting some 3" wide black tape (heavy duty like electrical tape) to lay down on top of the Chassis before bolting down the Bottom Rails to prevent any direct contact of wood to painted steel.

Hope this is enough for you to review and determine if this “Skeleton” is doable or not. Again, I am open to all suggestions.

One more thought I want to share with you. One of my original plans was to build the Body out of plywood and a conventional “stick” Skeleton and then cover the entire surface with several layers of a “cloth” fiber and then glass over (resin ). This would maintain the authentic appearance of an original 1800's Horseless Carriage, be super strong, fairly light weight and easy to build. The BIG downside would be the countless hours of sanding that dog-gone fiberglass to achieve the proper finish where no cloth would show in the paint. Your thoughts??

Have a great day,
Thomas
Hi Thomas,
Some thoughts... That design looks good overall - I like the corner pieces, thats a tried-and-true way of doing the panel surrounds. Those edge pieces could be done with a tablesaw and router. As you say the corners are tricky, but they could be mitered from the same stock then sanded to round the sharp miter corner. Or make corner bits on the mill with a rotary table or CNC.

The plywood would keep it from racking in the plane of the plywood, but I think you should add some diagonal bracing/gussets/knees on the corners from horizontal-to-vertical panels (even the 45's). Otherwise forces on the corners would be concentrated on butt joints at the corners only, and even if screwed through from the outside that would be wobbly. See attached drawing for what I mean. The knee would connect the vert/horiz ribs, and take the strain off the corner trim joint.

Covering it in glass cloth and epoxy (better than polyester resin for flexibility) could certainly be done, it is expensive for large areas and as you say it does take multiple coats and sanding to get it smooth again - not a fun project if you have not done it before, there is a lot of technique to it. Another option is just to paint on the epoxy into the wood to seal it and smooth in the grain before painting. That is a lot less effort and protects the wood quite well. It would give the look of metal panels too. It would help seal the edges where the outer frame is too, though those spots could be given a bead of marine caulk when assembled to seal the edges even better. Something like 3M 5200 caulk would be perfect for that.

The boundary layer between wood and steel is a great idea. For fasteners/screws, use stainless steel or silicon bronze with the wood connections. If it is all painted, that helps a lot, varnished surfaces would be a lot of maintenance, though if you coated it in epoxy then varnish over the top (for UV protection of the varnish) its a lot easier. Though you could get stainless sheet and do the Delorean look... 

For the plywood, you mention 1/4" or 1/2", the floor would want to be thicker than that for where you would be standing, either thicker piece or two layers, plus ribs underneath.

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: 1898 Automobile A.K.A. horseless carriage
« Reply #329 on: April 10, 2019, 02:43:16 PM »
Hello Chris @crueby,

As I expected a ton of good information from you. The diagonal bracing is a must and will be an easy addition to include. I like the idea of some sort of epoxy paint but will require me to do a lot of research. Reading through your reply has given me an idea for another approach to overall construction. I have to make a run into Lufkin this morning and will stop by the paint store and have a talk with them.

Thanks so much for all your help and time.

Have a great day,
Thomas