Author Topic: Educating the "Youngin's"  (Read 2093 times)

Offline steamer

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2018, 06:27:42 AM »
Well.

Yes he had access to the shop.   and unfortunately, his Supervisor...uhmmm   told him to use it.   I recognized that pretty quickly....His "supervisor" let him swing in the wind for it...

Nothing I hate more than being a two faced sack-less wonder.  there's some leadership!.... :hammerbash: :Mad:

Now that said....It's my shop, but I don't have a door on my shop. I do lock up the tools for the lathe and the mill, but leave a set of drills for the drill press.   I can't be there all the time.   I'm the part time Machinist.   I'm the ONLY machinist.   But there's a drill press and a belt sander and people use them.    If someone is in there, and they )(@#* something up, well....I have two choices

A    Dress them down publicly.    You get one strike with me....then this happens
B   Try to teach them if they are ignorant.

Jolly funny signs and clever covers doesn't help with the situation.   If the company has their safety insurance inspection, with one of those signs, there'd be an evacuation and a hazmat team on site.  If you think I'm kidding, you've been out of the work force too long.     The damaged plate is a cheaper option frankly.  I got written up because the commercial band saw didn't have a chip shield on it...yeah I'm serious,   Yeah it has one now...hanging on the wall...so I can put it on when the inspector comes.   It's the most moronic thing I've ever had to do in a shop....But they send people into the shop who know nothing about a machine shop, and their judgment is final....

I was told by my former boss that should be able to teach a couple of the "Engineer's" how to run the CNC mill on my lunch hour over a couple of weeks.   He was offended when I laughed hysterically.  there a reason why he's my former boss..

I'll leave that there.

This kid is different, and for those of you who have read this thread, I've stated that already. 

My complaint with him, doesn't really have anything to do with him or his upbringing.   He's actually pretty earnest.   It's his education....it's clearly sucked thus far.

I had a 20 minute conversation with my CEO, about this kid, this situation, and we agreed.  ( He liked my approach by the way)  Kids today spend too much time with computers, and not enough time fixing their clunker cars, or bicycles, or what have you.   They've lost the common sense aspect of working with your hands.    I had a 20 minute conversation with this kid explaining what a 3/8 bolt was, whether it was course thread or fine thread, why there are different pitches, what is the pitch of the thread and how it's measured, ect  and the kid looked like he just landed on Mars.  He really had NO clue about any of this.  His Engineering assignment?    Get 2 3/8 bolts and nuts and washers, drill two holes in the bench and bolt down the new arbor press.     This was day 2, and after the cad layout, and his request for me to check his work, we ordered the bolts.....he'll be working on the installation phase of the project tomorrow I'm sure.        He's a 3rd year Mechanical Engineering Student, and I know he's not dumb, but man, as an Engineer, he's got a long way to go!    Kids are our future!.....You have to be (*#(*@ me

All that and $40K/year tuition...yes that is what his school charges for an BSME .......talk about being taken for a ride  you just HAVE to be kidding me.    And save me the alameda speech...All the schools around here...BIG name schools are turning them out like this.  His current sidekick is far worse..    "I have these two parts that are called out on this print...how do I get them?"   I say...you mean how do you fill out a purchase req?    "No...how do I find who makes them?"    The print gives the name of the company, address and part number.....Ok....2 days later...still not ordered.    Finally I ordered it.

William and Ava have been educated.   there are wonderful and terrible things in my shop...and ask to go in there before you enter!
And Hey....they say please, thank you, and can I help?....What radicals!!!  Must be something in the water....

Dave


"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Jo

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2018, 06:54:18 AM »
Which reminds me of something that happened when I was about 20 ( so must have been a couple of years ago  ;) ) the very nice young man who was courting me got me to help him put the carb back on this car... because of the position of the carb it mounted on really long threaded studs (4" + of threads). He slid the carb over the studs and handed me a nut & washer to put on one side while he did the other.....

I put the washer over and spun the nut on using my fingers then stood there waiting to borrow the spanner watching him put the nut on his stud  :facepalm2: From the top flat by flat with the spanner  :disappointed:  I was an ex-apprentice - he was a higher degree qualified over paid engineer.

Jo
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 06:57:45 AM by Jo »
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Offline Stuart

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2018, 07:52:08 AM »
Jo
I have seen that behaviour from a guy next door at the time was doing a degree the book said use a spanner on nuts ( the hex type) now I was about ten at the time 60 plus years ago and knew better

This same guy when on to work on blue streak

As to education for tool use etc it depends on how you are brung up ,my dad was a fitter so tools 🛠 were around and I was shown what they were for eg you use a bell punch on the end grain of wood or lead block .

Now I was a inquiring sod so when dad took the engine out of our car ford 8 (CWA 112 ) it was in the shed so at the age of ten I helped him while he was at work he came home to find it in bits all of it , was he mad at no he just said you took it apart so you will have to help me put it back together ( we go on holidays at the weekend) well it ran and we had the hols

As to the guy in the question did he know what the granite was for to him it was a nice flat hard surface posh bench to me itís a case of explaining what all the shop tools do and the safe use as first introduction to the shop , but a cover should have been in place

Just a old codgers ramblings

Ever new generation invents everthing and the oldies know nowt ( inc sex ) :old:
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline nj111

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2018, 10:04:02 PM »
My experience with a young lad who had completed his 4 yr craft apprentiship was equally painful. He asked if he could use my personal lathe (at Home) - it's a Dean Smith & Grace tool room lathe that I've looked after very carefully for 20 years. A while later I hear all this hammering and wander over to find he decided to separate a morse taper adapter by hammering the assembly and tapered drift down onto the top of the tail stock casting repeatedly  and in doing so chipped off great chunks of the original enamel with every impact! Nick
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 10:09:04 PM by nj111 »

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2018, 10:54:24 PM »
It's a lot of fun to relate stories of 'near Darwin winners'. And we all have stories of ourselves.  ;D

It's also good to hear stories of drive, perseverance, and winning.

Here's a couple...

I used to tutor electronics when I was in school. There was one guy who was really struggling. His being half blind was a challenge but he kept at it. He never said a word of dismay or disappointment. He wasn't getting it. But when I asked him to try standing 2" from the blackboard...so he could see...he got it. It was only his not giving up that kept me wanting to help.

At work (I'm a software engineer - but newly retired), we would often get fresh-outs from college. School teaches (or not) the technical. Work teaches the reality. I came across some pretty smart newbies but they had a big problem that I had to beat out of them. A lot of (new) engineers want the customer to think and understand like the engineer does. Do/want what is logical. They were on the page of "The only problem we have is the customer." Most of them eventually got it. That is, what you think is important in a product is not necessarily what a customer thinks is important.

We had a lot of interns too. I was always impressed with them. They had the technical skills but knew there was more to it and were very thirsty for practical skills.

An earlier post commented on education (or lack thereof).

In my mind, education is the solution to all things. Not financing it or supporting it is criminal.

On a somewhat more scary note...education is the single most powerful weapon any nation can develop.

When I come across a 'dummy', 'ignorant', call them what you will...it's not their fault. It's the fault of those that didn't teach them.

The question then becomes...why weren't they taught? I won't go into that.

Time to go back to machining.  ;D
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
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Zee-Another Thread Trasher.

Offline Johnmcc69

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2018, 02:00:21 AM »
They shut down "shop" classes years ago in the school I graduated from years ago. They shut down the tech school I graduated from the tool & die program.
 I've worked in tool & die my entire career, in capacity as T & D maker & as a designer. My last company I worked for moved mfg to Mexico.

 I live in an area that was very heavy into the tooling industry. The industry left years ago & interest in the funding to train them for that left as well.

 I just don't know anymore.

 But..I did find that working with interns fresh out of college was "interesting" . Especially from large companies who had no shop experience. They figured if they can create it on computer, it can be manufactured.

 I served my time on the shop floor before I was taken on as a designer, the old boss made sure you knew the basics & how to cut metal & think on your feet.

 Maybe it's a regional thing, but IMHO, it's becoming a global thing.

 Disclaimer: this is just my experience so please don't "flame" me..

 John
 

Offline john mills

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2018, 02:40:06 AM »
Most of my TIME WORKING HAS BEEN IN MACHINE SHOPS.
I found most of the apprentices good and did good work and looked after the equipment well.The SO CALLED TRADESMEN  FITTER machinist they were the ones how would pick the inspection angle plate to use on the face plate of the lathe to clamp the hook forging for turning 4"the shank wouldn't want the old ones used before for that .one ofThe fitter would walk around the work shop with the precision parallels one in each hand playing jingle balls banging them together no clue as to what he was doing to them.the engeneering manager took the slip gauges had to use the for checking mikes  played building blocks with them on his desk put them in a plastic bag
in his desk draw did't know any thing about how they were meant to be cleaned and what to do to place them back in the box.They had to be sent out to be repaired and recalibrate to be useable again.   now only working
part time as a contractor i see things ,using the new height gauge the welding bench used as the marking out table it slides around well on the welding slag and grinding grit.as a contractor no one is interested in what i might think.as machinist all i can do do is repair so i could do my work the best i can.i could go on with lots more
examples  but in todays workplace ? You can only point out the problem  but try not get upset yourself it won't
gain anything.  When i supervised a prod action line people wanted to lock things up but the factory forman
would say the tools need to be there in position to be used ,if they disappear they need replacing when they have several they won't need any more.would prefer they asked .
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 02:56:04 AM by john mills »

Offline steamer

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2018, 11:48:56 AM »
"On a somewhat more scary note...education is the single most powerful weapon any nation can develop.

When I come across a 'dummy', 'ignorant', call them what you will...it's not their fault. It's the fault of those that didn't teach them.

The question then becomes...why weren't they taught? I won't go into that.

Time to go back to machining."




That was my point....

 
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline steamer

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2018, 11:52:27 AM »
They shut down "shop" classes years ago in the school I graduated from years ago. They shut down the tech school I graduated from the tool & die program.
 I've worked in tool & die my entire career, in capacity as T & D maker & as a designer. My last company I worked for moved mfg to Mexico.

 I live in an area that was very heavy into the tooling industry. The industry left years ago & interest in the funding to train them for that left as well.

 I just don't know anymore.

 But..I did find that working with interns fresh out of college was "interesting" . Especially from large companies who had no shop experience. They figured if they can create it on computer, it can be manufactured.

 I served my time on the shop floor before I was taken on as a designer, the old boss made sure you knew the basics & how to cut metal & think on your feet.

 Maybe it's a regional thing, but IMHO, it's becoming a global thing.

 Disclaimer: this is just my experience so please don't "flame" me..

 John


No flaming here Ö.I promise.     I don't necessarily have an answer for this problem.   But it's a problem.   A country who can't manufacture becomes a third world country.   It all starts with machine tools and their use.     It really is that simple.

"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline steamer

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2018, 12:15:09 PM »
"Now I was a inquiring sod so when dad took the engine out of our car ford 8 (CWA 112 ) it was in the shed so at the age of ten I helped him while he was at work he came home to find it in bits all of it , was he mad at no he just said you took it apart so you will have to help me put it back together ( we go on holidays at the weekend) well it ran and we had the hols "


 :lolb:

I did the same thing....though the engine had a spun bearing, and was already out of the car...he came home to it disassembled and spread out over the yard.   He laughed because I was covered head to toe with engine oil and grime...Ö  "Now put it back together!"      :lolb:
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline JC54

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2018, 07:50:40 PM »
Following on from some of the comments on this thread, my first experience with engines at age 7 was an old villiers engine lurking in the corner of Dad's garage. I managed to strip it down, rebuild it without help from Dad (but from an Uncle) got it running much to Dad's surprise. All tools cleaned and replaced in their place.....
        I ran my own Auto Body-shop for several years and found that the majority of "so-called" trained youngsters that I employed had no practical or common sense skills whatsoever. I soon worked out which ones were worth persevering with and which hit the road. If they made a mistake fine we all do, but if they didn't listen to and take note of what you told them politely and quietly then then goodbye. Most people in the UK will remember the YTS programme, now we are slowly going back to proper apprenticeships.
     I am in my 60's where can I get a Model Engine Apprenticeship?  :old: :noidea: 

Offline steamer

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2018, 08:07:12 PM »
Following on from some of the comments on this thread, my first experience with engines at age 7 was an old villiers engine lurking in the corner of Dad's garage. I managed to strip it down, rebuild it without help from Dad (but from an Uncle) got it running much to Dad's surprise. All tools cleaned and replaced in their place.....
        I ran my own Auto Body-shop for several years and found that the majority of "so-called" trained youngsters that I employed had no practical or common sense skills whatsoever. I soon worked out which ones were worth persevering with and which hit the road. If they made a mistake fine we all do, but if they didn't listen to and take note of what you told them politely and quietly then then goodbye. Most people in the UK will remember the YTS programme, now we are slowly going back to proper apprenticeships.
     I am in my 60's where can I get a Model Engine Apprenticeship?  :old: :noidea:


Well put....Im not quite that old...though close...but I've given up being patient for multiple attempts, or after suffering back talk.   
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Allen Smithee

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2018, 01:01:46 PM »
You have to be patient, just as long as they ask the questions rather than making assumptions. Like:

"Hey boss - I've nearly finished that large gear-cutting job you wanted and I just need to know one thing before it's finished. That last gear tooth - did you want one wide one or two little narrow ones?"


AS
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Offline dvbydt

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2018, 03:56:30 PM »
In an attempt to put some cheer into this thread, I used to be an Imagineering Tutor - after school for 10-11 year olds. It was always oversubscribed because the children learned to build model aeroplanes, Morse code buzzers, single transistor radios (with earbuds!). Have a look at their website :-

https://imagineering.org.uk/clubs/information

The story I have to tell was told by an amazed father at one parent's evening. His little girl was" helping" him with some DIY project and he asked her to hand him a screwdriver. She replied "Do you want it for a crosshead or a slotted screw?"

It is real surprising how much information young minds can absorb but you have to spend the time with them.

Ian




Online Twizseven

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Re: Educating the "Youngin's"
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2018, 04:39:31 PM »
The car engine stories take me back a bit.  My father (now 97) was an engineer all his life (at Cincinnati).  When I was about 4 he found me outside the house giving a near neighbour lessons on where and how he could jack his car up so as to put the spare wheel on to fix a puncture.  He followed my instructions and did it.

When I had wanted my first car at 17 (1967) I was told I could have my mothers 1954 Standard Eight.  ONE CONDITION.  I had to take the engine out, strip it, rebore it, fit new piston rings, decode the head and re-assemble it all.  Then repeat the exercise with the braking system.  He would not help and I had to learn the hard way.  I could ask questions but had to make sense if the answers and work it all out for myself.  It all worked and it lasted me a few years.  I was then stripping and rebuilding all my mates cars and servicing them.

I remember going to an engineering show with him one day.  One if his apprentices was doing some scraping on a flat plate.  Dad was not happy with the job he was making of it.  He took the scraper, demonstrated how to do it properly, then dug two nice grooves for the guy to scrape flat.  I was surprised he did not get the scraper buried in his head by the apprentice.

I learnt a lot from him but not as much as I should have done when he was able to show me.  Unfortunately he cannot use his lathe now.

Colin