Author Topic: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV  (Read 4287 times)

Online Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2018, 09:47:38 PM »
Hello Jon,

My prime source of information for the W165 is from the British Intelligence report No 1755, published in 1948. The report provided three cross section drawing of the W165 engine which you can see in  Reply #11. One of the drawings had one or two of the major dimensions, which enabled me to accurately scale the whole model. I have made everything as close as possible, both inside and out, to the original, except for the cylinder blocks.

The full size cylinder blocks were an amazing welded steel fabrication which can be seen in Reply #209. I cannot weld that neatly and certainly not in 1/3 scale, so I evolved a fully machined alternative design which can be seen starting at Reply #209. You will also see my alternative method of combining the valve guides with the valve seats in a single screw-in item made from bronze, See reply #244. The all-machined model cylinder block is almost identical in appearance to welded original.

I have been able to see and touch, one of the two surviving W165 cars at the Goodwood Festival of Speed and also at their home base in Stuttgart, Germany. Mercedes are very concerned about (pirate!!)replica engines and machines being built, therefore will not release any drawings and restrict access to details of the engines.

In the case of the DFV, the engine was built in quantity and most are still around in private collections or museums. You can see and hear them running at the Goodwood historic race meetings and elsewhere. It would be good if you could interest one of the owner/ restorers in your project and get access to the real hardware.

Mike
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 10:13:49 PM by Vixen »
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2018, 03:31:16 PM »
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply, you certainly picked a difficult subject to replicate and I have no idea how you have turned a few 2D drawings into such a beautiful piece of engineering even if you have been lucky enough to touch the beast.

Lucky for me, word got around of my printed DFV and I was contacted by a chap who races a couple of 1974 Surtees cars in the Historic Masters F1. He also builds and casts his own DFV parts and offered me access to the full size castings and components which I took him up on including FG400 gearboxes which will be next  (that's going to be a long way down the line).

I was just not sure if I should start measuring everything on the full size engine and transfer these to 1/4 scale machining drawings or "do my own thing" to make things easier and more practical. As I mentioned before things like cylinder liners and shell bearings will end up pretty thin walled and ineffective. I guess it boils down to what level of authenticity you are after.

Jon
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Online Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2018, 04:11:47 PM »
Hello Jon,

The w165 was not my first model engine. It will be enough of a challenge for you just to make a working V8, So best to keep it simple and practical. Keep the overall proportions and looks of the DFV but design the moving parts to be made in a model engineers workshop. There are a number of published V8 designs to guide you.

It's good to have full size components for reference, Take lots of photos but don't become a slave to the ruler and rivet counting. Your present printed engine looks authentic enough to anyones eyes. Use that as the basis and add a mm of extra material to each of the mating faces so that you can skim the castings on the mill to make everything flat and square.

I would advise you to check out 'Just Castings Ltd' with a sample casting first, before you commit to more drawing effort.

Mike

PS was it the Chris Perkins Surtees by any chance?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 04:25:40 PM by Vixen »
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2018, 10:15:49 PM »
Mike,

Some good advice, thanks.

Yes it was Chris, do you know him? He's been really helpful and I am going to help him with machining parts and possibly replicating the TS16 as I run a fairly large machine shop and gasket facility.

Jon
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Online Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2018, 10:51:36 AM »
Hello Jon

I do not know Chris personally, there are not too many owners of two Surtees cars to chose from.

I do know that you find a much nicer class of person in the historic racing scene than in any other class of motor sport.

Good luck with you project and keep us all informed of your progress.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Mike
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2018, 01:19:57 PM »
Thanks Mike, keep up the good work, I'll be watching

Jon
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Offline bouch

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2018, 07:22:26 PM »
My prime source of information for the W165 is from the British Intelligence report No 1755, published in 1948. The report provided three cross section drawing of the W165 engine which you can see in  Reply #11. One of the drawings had one or two of the major dimensions, which enabled me to accurately scale the whole model. I have made everything as close as possible, both inside and out, to the original, except for the cylinder blocks.

8>< snip ><8

I have been able to see and touch, one of the two surviving W165 cars at the Goodwood Festival of Speed and also at their home base in Stuttgart, Germany. Mercedes are very concerned about (pirate!!)replica engines and machines being built, therefore will not release any drawings and restrict access to details of the engines.

Sorry for the thread hijack,  but I have two questions...

1) Did you tell Mercedes about your model of the engine and...
2) If so, and knowing how they feel about full size replicas, how did they feel about it?

Online Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2018, 08:46:34 PM »
Mercedes Benz corporate lawyers fiercely defend their band name and copyright. They have a strict policy never to release technical information that is not already in the public domain. In the past they have seized and destroyed fake MB copies and do not permit replicas. They view my 1/3 scale model as a replica... a non MB product carrying the MB name.

One of the two surviving W165's is on permanent display in the main MB museum in the center of Stuttgart which is open to the public. The other car is kept in a running condition at the Mercedes Classic Center in Fellbach. The Fellbach collection is a very private collection. 

I arranged a visit to see the surviving W165's with the curator of the Fellbach Historic Collection. At Fellbach they keep ALL the surviving race cars that MB ever made. I had the privilege to shown around one warehouse which housed all the surviving pre-war Mercedes Silver Arrows, Stirling Moss's Millia Millia wining 300SLR, Fangio's W196 GP car and a dozen, or more, modern F1 cars from the Mclaren /Mercedes era through to the present day Mercedes team cars. There must have been several hundred historic race cars in the collection, worth hundreds of millions.

They showed great interest in the model engine parts I brought with me, but politely explained the MB policy regarding the release of technical information... Nothing more is be released. I was able to view and photograph the W165 with the engine cover removed but that was it. They would not permit the removal of the side panels to expose the side view of the engine. The curator generously gave me copies of all the archive W165 photos from the 1939/ 1940 era, some showed the engine partially dismantled, which was a tremendous help.

MB have always been very polite and perfect gentlemen, they have always been as helpful as their strict technical release policy will allow. One has to except it, that's the way it is.

Mike
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 05:46:14 PM by Vixen »
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Offline QSL

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2019, 05:25:20 PM »
What is the status on this project?

Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2019, 06:23:48 PM »
Hi,
I've been working on the printed version rather than working to produce aluminium castings.

Ill upload some pics and a video soon

Thanks
It's not what you know, it's not who you know.
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