Author Topic: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV  (Read 4430 times)

Offline JonC

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1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« on: July 29, 2018, 09:09:59 PM »
Hi all,

I have been a member since 2015 and have viewed some absolutely incredible builds on this site. The skill and dedication shown by people has been amazing and an inspiration for me to start my own project.

My interest is my passion for Formula 1 racing through the 1970's and 80's and the engine that powered most of the teams through this period, the Ford Cosworth DFV.

Being the most successful engine in F1 history it has always surprised me that no-one has ever built a proper scale model as a tribute to this incredible engine, it's designer and the brave drivers who it powered to victory and so I thought I would try to do something of my own to address this.

I would like to say at this stage that although I am an engineer and run an engineering company for my work, I have never been involved with any model engineering projects and so I'm starting literally from scratch on this. Also it was never my intention to post any of the work I have done on here but I have been asked to do so by another member who thinks that it might be of interest to others.

In no way does anything I have done so far, compare or come anywhere near to the work carried out by the members on this website.

I will start the explanation of the journey so far soon.

thanks
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Online steamer

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2018, 09:27:04 PM »
Welcome Jon

Glad you have a passion for this..so I'll take that first post as your introduction.

Dave
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Offline Art K

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2018, 09:50:40 PM »
Jon,
Welcome to the forum. It takes all sort's and you find a smattering of everything here with every conceivable combination of machines.
Since Dave & mike suggested a few I'll throw out a few for suggested reading.
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,3846.0.html
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,3007.0.html
I have built my first two engines as singles and am working on cad for an inline 4 next.
Art
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2018, 10:03:03 PM »
Dave, Mike, Art

Thanks for the swift replies, appreciated. I'm still very clunky on here having never posted before but I'm sure I'll get used to it.

Mike, very few drawings exist however I started with the knowns ie bore, stroke, deck height, cylinder spacing etc and things developed from there.
I'm in Harrogate north Yorks

Dave, yes please. I probably should have done a more general intro first but again new to any posting.

Jon
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Offline b.lindsey

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2018, 10:41:38 PM »
Hi and welcome Jon. I am sure you will get the hang of things soon and look forward to your future posts.

Bill

Offline vcutajar

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2018, 01:26:34 AM »
Hi Jon and welcome to the group.

Vince

Online Kim

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2018, 06:03:14 AM »
Hi Jon,
Welcome to MEM!
I'm sure you will find that many people will be interested in a build like this, and willing to offer any support or help you might need.  So, post away!  And make sure to include plenty of pictures too :)

Kim

Offline Roger B

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2018, 07:37:30 AM »
Welcome to the Forum  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:

That's certainly a challenge, but an achievable one  :) The late Profesor Chaddock Was building a model of the 1 1/2 litre BRM V8 which resulted in him designing and making the Quorn tool and cutter grinder to make the tools to make the engine.

http://www.modelenginenews.org/meng/quorn/dhc.html

Looking forward to some pictures  :wine1:
Best regards

Roger

Offline PJPickard

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2018, 11:00:29 AM »
Here is a great video for inspiration:


Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2018, 08:11:53 PM »
Thanks everyone for the welcome.

As I said on my first post, I am no model engineer but do hope to make it something that I can get involved with more toward my retirement. For now though the aim was to produce a cast aluminium replica of the DFV but also to see what challenges may lay ahead if it was ever going to be taken further to a running engine. I am well aware however that as a first project, a running 1/4 scale quad cam V8 would be a little ambitious.

I chose 1/4 scale as a good size that can be displayed easily anywhere and drew in full scale the external features of the main components ie block, crankcase, head, cam carrier and cam cover. I then printed 2D drawings in 1/4 scale from this and then glued them to wood to use as a guides to produce models of each piece by hand.
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Offline b.lindsey

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2018, 08:20:57 PM »
Nice...if nothing else something to keep you motivated towards that longer term goal of a running engine!!

Bill

Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2018, 08:24:07 PM »
I then got talking to a friend of mine who owns a 3D printing bureau about whether he could scan these models to produce wax versions for investment casting and realised that I had waisted hours producing these as the CAD drawings could be converted to stl files and directly loaded onto his cloud for printing. This also meant that much more detail could be included so I developed the drawing to include as much detail as possible.
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2018, 08:54:26 PM »
This is now where I'm at with the 3D printed version. The engine has most of the water cavities and oil journals and held together with 2mm & 3mm diameter magnets as most people want to pull it apart to see internally.
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2018, 09:03:20 PM »
More pictures
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2018, 09:04:29 PM »
and more
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Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2018, 09:10:59 PM »
Sure like that finish.

Have a great day,
Thomas

Offline Roger B

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2018, 09:04:23 AM »
Excellent models  :praise2:  :praise2: Have you identified a suitable casting company. Vixen ended up using a London jewellery company to cast some parts for his Jupiter radial engine.
Best regards

Roger

Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2018, 10:44:21 AM »
Thanks Roger.

Before I go out for casting I need to simplify the drawings ie remove oil journals, holes etc and add on some machining stock.

Sounds and looks like the company used by Vixen is the best place to start.

Jon
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Online steamer

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2018, 11:11:56 AM »
Jon....I would read up on Vixen's posts on his W165.   He had issues with printed masters....

Dave
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2018, 12:04:57 PM »
Hi Dave,

Thanks, I'm reading my way through the W165 and will look out for that.

Unbelievable workmanship.

Convincing myself that going the casting route is justified by maybe a commercial interest for castings  :-[

Jon
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Offline Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2018, 12:35:58 PM »
Hi Jon

Sorry to correct Dave, but the lost wax casting stuff is in the "By Jupiter" posts.

For all my lost wax foundry work I use "justcastings. co.uk". They produce very good castings, they have a quick turn round, the cost depends on the size of the object and the amount of metal consumed. Have a talk with a guy called Theo at Just Castings Ltd. Tell him Mike sent you.

If you read the "By Jupiter" posts, you will see I make my waxes from a silicone mould. You should allow a 2.0% shrinkage allowance for the investment casting process.  There may be an additional "print" shrinkage allowance ( the equivalent of my "silicone mould" shrinkage allowance). You will have to do some test prints, in wax, to determine this value. You should then be able to scale up the individual piece parts your 3D model by the required amount before you print the waxes for the foundry.

Mike
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2018, 12:43:29 PM »
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the clarification.

Brilliant work by the way.

Jon
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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2018, 12:44:12 PM »
Justifiably corrected....Thank you MIke

Dave
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2018, 01:10:11 PM »
Hi Mike,

You made the Perspex parts to make the wax mould to make the castings.

Have you or do you know if anyone has tried the more direct approach of lost PLA or printing the part in wax?

There are several tricky area's where you wouldn't get parts out of the mould ie the web on top of the block and the water jackets either side.

Thanks

Jon
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Offline Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2018, 01:26:32 PM »
Hello Jon

I went the master pattern and silicone mould route because I did not have access to 3D modeling software and a friendly 3D printer to help me.

If I were to do more investment casting, I would try the 3D model/ printed wax route. It would certainly cut out a lot of hassle in producing the waxes.

Why not make a simple (small) test piece and give it to Just Castings. I am sure they would be happy to try a lost PLA or lost Printed Wax casting for you.

Take this one step at a time and tell us how you get on.

Mike
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2018, 01:47:22 PM »
Thanks Mike, will do.

I have my own printer now so would be happy to help anyone else exploring this route.

Jon
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Offline Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2018, 02:04:21 PM »
Hello Jon,

The water cavities and the top deck would be difficult from a solid master pattern but dead easy for a printed wax.

You may need to consider how the investment in the cavities will be supported during burn out and casting. Many full size engine blocks had 'core prints' through the casting walls to support the internal parts, these were later sealed off with metal core plugs (domed discs).

What 3D printer do you have? Can it print in wax? 

Many of the commercial print houses now offer printed wax, and usually to a much finer surface texture than possible with a hobby printer.

Mike
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2018, 02:51:26 PM »
Mike,

I assume for the block, core prints wouldn't be necessary as the web cavity and water jackets would be connected to the outer shell of the mould so these are for area's where the cavity is essentially in fresh air after burn out?

Another issue with wax printing is support in areas like the web. I'm not sure that you can print support for wax and then remove it effectively. it might be that I have to split the block into various sections that can be printed without support and then glue/melt them together.

All a bit of a learning curve but that's half the fun.

Printer is a Prusa i3 but PLA, ABS, TPU only.

Jon
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Offline Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2018, 03:52:20 PM »
All a bit of a learning curve but that's half the fun.

I think it was President Kennedy who said " We do not chose to go to the Moon because it is easy, but because it is hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills."

Same goes for model engineering, when you are exploring something new and different

Mike
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2018, 08:22:40 PM »
Hi Mike,

On the W165 what are the non scalable area's that you have had to work around.

The engine looks very true to life but I guess there must be area's where it isn't possible to keep it that way ie cylinder liners?

Also I assume you don't have full dimensional drawings of all the components so how have you worked out what to work to ?

Jon
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Offline Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2018, 09:47:38 PM »
Hello Jon,

My prime source of information for the W165 is from the British Intelligence report No 1755, published in 1948. The report provided three cross section drawing of the W165 engine which you can see in  Reply #11. One of the drawings had one or two of the major dimensions, which enabled me to accurately scale the whole model. I have made everything as close as possible, both inside and out, to the original, except for the cylinder blocks.

The full size cylinder blocks were an amazing welded steel fabrication which can be seen in Reply #209. I cannot weld that neatly and certainly not in 1/3 scale, so I evolved a fully machined alternative design which can be seen starting at Reply #209. You will also see my alternative method of combining the valve guides with the valve seats in a single screw-in item made from bronze, See reply #244. The all-machined model cylinder block is almost identical in appearance to welded original.

I have been able to see and touch, one of the two surviving W165 cars at the Goodwood Festival of Speed and also at their home base in Stuttgart, Germany. Mercedes are very concerned about (pirate!!)replica engines and machines being built, therefore will not release any drawings and restrict access to details of the engines.

In the case of the DFV, the engine was built in quantity and most are still around in private collections or museums. You can see and hear them running at the Goodwood historic race meetings and elsewhere. It would be good if you could interest one of the owner/ restorers in your project and get access to the real hardware.

Mike
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 10:13:49 PM by Vixen »
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2018, 03:31:16 PM »
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply, you certainly picked a difficult subject to replicate and I have no idea how you have turned a few 2D drawings into such a beautiful piece of engineering even if you have been lucky enough to touch the beast.

Lucky for me, word got around of my printed DFV and I was contacted by a chap who races a couple of 1974 Surtees cars in the Historic Masters F1. He also builds and casts his own DFV parts and offered me access to the full size castings and components which I took him up on including FG400 gearboxes which will be next  (that's going to be a long way down the line).

I was just not sure if I should start measuring everything on the full size engine and transfer these to 1/4 scale machining drawings or "do my own thing" to make things easier and more practical. As I mentioned before things like cylinder liners and shell bearings will end up pretty thin walled and ineffective. I guess it boils down to what level of authenticity you are after.

Jon
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Offline Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2018, 04:11:47 PM »
Hello Jon,

The w165 was not my first model engine. It will be enough of a challenge for you just to make a working V8, So best to keep it simple and practical. Keep the overall proportions and looks of the DFV but design the moving parts to be made in a model engineers workshop. There are a number of published V8 designs to guide you.

It's good to have full size components for reference, Take lots of photos but don't become a slave to the ruler and rivet counting. Your present printed engine looks authentic enough to anyones eyes. Use that as the basis and add a mm of extra material to each of the mating faces so that you can skim the castings on the mill to make everything flat and square.

I would advise you to check out 'Just Castings Ltd' with a sample casting first, before you commit to more drawing effort.

Mike

PS was it the Chris Perkins Surtees by any chance?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 04:25:40 PM by Vixen »
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2018, 10:15:49 PM »
Mike,

Some good advice, thanks.

Yes it was Chris, do you know him? He's been really helpful and I am going to help him with machining parts and possibly replicating the TS16 as I run a fairly large machine shop and gasket facility.

Jon
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Offline Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2018, 10:51:36 AM »
Hello Jon

I do not know Chris personally, there are not too many owners of two Surtees cars to chose from.

I do know that you find a much nicer class of person in the historic racing scene than in any other class of motor sport.

Good luck with you project and keep us all informed of your progress.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Mike
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Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2018, 01:19:57 PM »
Thanks Mike, keep up the good work, I'll be watching

Jon
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Offline bouch

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2018, 07:22:26 PM »
My prime source of information for the W165 is from the British Intelligence report No 1755, published in 1948. The report provided three cross section drawing of the W165 engine which you can see in  Reply #11. One of the drawings had one or two of the major dimensions, which enabled me to accurately scale the whole model. I have made everything as close as possible, both inside and out, to the original, except for the cylinder blocks.

8>< snip ><8

I have been able to see and touch, one of the two surviving W165 cars at the Goodwood Festival of Speed and also at their home base in Stuttgart, Germany. Mercedes are very concerned about (pirate!!)replica engines and machines being built, therefore will not release any drawings and restrict access to details of the engines.

Sorry for the thread hijack,  but I have two questions...

1) Did you tell Mercedes about your model of the engine and...
2) If so, and knowing how they feel about full size replicas, how did they feel about it?

Offline Vixen

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2018, 08:46:34 PM »
Mercedes Benz corporate lawyers fiercely defend their band name and copyright. They have a strict policy never to release technical information that is not already in the public domain. In the past they have seized and destroyed fake MB copies and do not permit replicas. They view my 1/3 scale model as a replica... a non MB product carrying the MB name.

One of the two surviving W165's is on permanent display in the main MB museum in the center of Stuttgart which is open to the public. The other car is kept in a running condition at the Mercedes Classic Center in Fellbach. The Fellbach collection is a very private collection. 

I arranged a visit to see the surviving W165's with the curator of the Fellbach Historic Collection. At Fellbach they keep ALL the surviving race cars that MB ever made. I had the privilege to shown around one warehouse which housed all the surviving pre-war Mercedes Silver Arrows, Stirling Moss's Millia Millia wining 300SLR, Fangio's W196 GP car and a dozen, or more, modern F1 cars from the Mclaren /Mercedes era through to the present day Mercedes team cars. There must have been several hundred historic race cars in the collection, worth hundreds of millions.

They showed great interest in the model engine parts I brought with me, but politely explained the MB policy regarding the release of technical information... Nothing more is be released. I was able to view and photograph the W165 with the engine cover removed but that was it. They would not permit the removal of the side panels to expose the side view of the engine. The curator generously gave me copies of all the archive W165 photos from the 1939/ 1940 era, some showed the engine partially dismantled, which was a tremendous help.

MB have always been very polite and perfect gentlemen, they have always been as helpful as their strict technical release policy will allow. One has to except it, that's the way it is.

Mike
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 05:46:14 PM by Vixen »
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Offline QSL

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2019, 05:25:20 PM »
What is the status on this project?

Offline JonC

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Re: 1/4 Scale Ford Cosworth DFV
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2019, 06:23:48 PM »
Hi,
I've been working on the printed version rather than working to produce aluminium castings.

Ill upload some pics and a video soon

Thanks
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