Author Topic: Root and Vandervoort Vertical (Read 6001 times)

Craig DeShong · « **on:** July 24, 2018, 10:09:10 PM »

This project has been sitting on the shelf, in a well over half finished state for around two years. Time to finish this model; maybe I can even get it to a few engine shows this fall.

This project is a build from castings and drawings supplied by Rocky’s Model Engines. It’s a 5/16 model of the Root and Vandervoort 4 HP vertical. It makes a very attractive model and is complemented by an external water pump, driven by a belt, and a cooling tower.

The vendor supplies two iron castings, nine brass castings, 21 aluminum castings, and the gears. You have the choice of cast iron or brass flywheels; I choose brass.

This is the third hit-and-miss engine I’ve built from castings, and the second that uses an igniter. I wouldn’t advise this project for your first hit-and-miss engine, nor your first igniter. The vendor assumes familiarization of hit-and-miss technology as well as an understanding of igniters so you might be left in the lurch if this were your first project.

I pulled this engine “out of mothballs” so to speak and started on it again a few days ago. I wasn’t planning on a build log, but the morel I looked at this project the more I thought some of you might like to see this build completed.

This log begins after a lot of the machining has been completed.

Below shows a photo of the project to date.

The intake manifold can be seen in the head. The engine has an enclosed crankcase, but the crankcase is just vented by a cap as seen in the photo. The gas tank is in the base.

Another view from the same flywheel side but now from the rear of the engine.

Here you see the water inlet and outlet on the cylinder and head, also a bit more detail of all the interesting motion on this side of the flywheel.

Now I give you a view from the other flywheel side where the exhaust leaves the head. An oiler will be installed in the lower opening on the cylinder that passes into the bottom of the combustion chamber.

This engine has lots of interesting details, carried over from the original. Here is a rocker that is supposed to hold the intake valve closed while the detent holds the exhaust valve open.

This engine uses the exhaust pushrod to actuate the ignitor and also operate the exhaust valve rocker arm.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXGqAJa3olg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXGqAJa3olg</a>
The cam is a complex shape that needs cut out and ground to shape to that the pushrod motion will time the ignitor and exhaust valve events correctly. Here you see the ignitor trip and the exhaust open and close.

All this is accomplished by the motion you see in this video.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRhi3Mvj-N4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRhi3Mvj-N4</a>
Here you see the exhaust pushrod moving up and down in response to the cam. The fuel pump is driven by a bell crank on the left and the detent is poised to lock out the exhaust motion.
The detent is actuated by a weight on the flywheel that centrifugal force drives outward against a spring.

As you can see this project is well on the way to complete. I store my models in my daughters’ room (it’s true: when the children move away you don’t lose them, the house just gains more rooms

). She went her way a while back, but did leave her stuffed animal collection behind. When I went in to retrieve the few castings that were left to complete this engine I found this:

So Sirus’s influence must reach across the pond and is now influencing things here in the colonies.

I’ve been working on this model off and on for quite a while, time to get it finished.

Ye-Ole Steam Dude · « **Reply #1 on:** July 24, 2018, 10:31:20 PM »

Hello Craig,

Really nice looking engine and fine work by you to date. Hope you keep us updated as this progresses.

Have a great day,
Thomas

Dave Otto · « **Reply #2 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:06:36 AM »

Hi Craig, it will be fun watching this one get finished up. I used to see Randy at the Oregon GEARS shows; he is a super nice guy.
Attached is a picture of how the water pump was attached on the original engine, at least on this one.

Dave

Jasonb · « **Reply #3 on:** July 25, 2018, 07:22:23 AM »

I have one that is complete but finding it quite hard to get running. There is not a lot of adjustment on the ignitor trip like other ignitor equiped engines I have maade and there is very little room before trip catches on the exhaust push rod or ignitor.

I'm waiting for some cooler weather as it's too hot for cranking engines at the moment. Cart is all made and painted just waiting for the running engine.

The kit comes with a bracket to mount the pump on a sled or cart

b.lindsey · « **Reply #4 on:** July 25, 2018, 03:06:37 PM »

That's quite a handsome engine Craig. Will be looking forward to seeing it finished up and running. What other castings might be hiding in various rooms?

Bill

cwelkie · « **Reply #5 on:** July 26, 2018, 01:14:43 AM »

Looking good Craig - can’t wait to see it running.
Your post reminded me of a disappointment earlier this year though. I contacted the vendor to purchase a set of castings and learned they are no longer available; a too-common story.
Charlie

zeeprogrammer · « **Reply #6 on:** July 26, 2018, 01:36:10 AM »

Cool. I haven't thought too much about IC engines...other than someday I want to build one.

Jo · « **Reply #7 on:** July 26, 2018, 05:24:19 AM »

I don't think we have any sets of engine castings like that one

'll be watching the build. I am trying to avoid buying more casting sets at the moment.

Quote from: Craig DeShong on July 24, 2018, 10:09:10 PM

When I went in to retrieve the few castings that were left to complete this engine I found this:
…..
So Sirus’s influence must reach across the pond and is now influencing things here in the colonies.

Sorry about that. What can I say he is a bad influence

Jo

Craig DeShong · « **Reply #8 on:** July 27, 2018, 09:45:54 PM »

Firstly, Thanks to all of you who posted a response; it’s nice to hear your comments. Also thanks to the others that are taking the time to see what I’m doing.

Over the past few days work has continued. I’m waiting on delivery of a piston ring from Dave Reed and in the meantime I’m trying to get the few unfinished items addressed so I can attempt to run this engine.

First on the agenda was the muffler. Randy supplied three castings which you see below:

Once the machining steps are complete, this is the result:

Though I could have bought an oiler, Randy provides the clear plastic and drawings to build your own; I figured I’d give it a try. Here are the parts:

and this is the completed oiler:

The design of this oiler is missing the normal spring that closes the valve, so the valve is closed by pressing down on the center lever after it is moved from the “up” position.

Lastly, the fuel mixer received my attention. This is a brass casting. It receives fuel from the fuel pump through one piece of brass tubing and the overflow fuel drains out of the mixer and back to the fuel tank through another.

Craig DeShong · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2018, 05:12:50 PM »

The wife and I decided to take an impromptu vacation; and with that and with life in general, I’ve had little time in the shop over the last few weeks. I’ve had this thing “sort-of” running for a while now. The more it runs the better it runs; the ring still need to seat, so the compression is rather low. When I give it a squirt of oil down the exhaust valve it runs much better, till it burns the oil off, so I know it will run better in time. The lock-out mechanism seems to work pretty well when it gets up to speed.

I’m not happy about the way it “misses” several times before it finally hits; I’ve diddled with the carbonation and it doesn’t seem to help; maybe I’ll need to address the timing again. As Jason says however, there isn't a lot of motion on the exhaust push-rod to play with in setting the timing. Currently I believe it’s hitting just at, or a little before TDC.

I’m also not happy with the way the fuel pump dribbles a tiny bit of fuel down the side of the frame. It’s seeping out of the top of the pump in the plunger area. The drawings show no packing and nut there but I’m thinking of adding such. Jason: does your engine exhibit this problem?

I’ve built the water pump, just need to make the cooling tower once I locate the appropriate sized coffee tin (as the drawings suggest).

Below are a few videos of it’s running to date; once it’s painted and finished I’ll post another; hopefully it will be running a bit better then.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN8gmUZAIaw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN8gmUZAIaw</a>

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShF17amkqrg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShF17amkqrg</a>

Jasonb · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2018, 07:11:35 PM »

I've not noticed that fuel leak but will have a look when I get back to trying to get it to run.

I used a cut down paint tin as I'm not a coffee drinker, looks OK once painted up

Tennessee Whiskey · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2018, 09:40:59 PM »

I guess that I missed this one on the first posting. That’s nice Craig. I like the “one hit-several misses” . Makes me think everything is just right to make it keep happening

.

Eric

10KPete · « **Reply #12 on:** August 15, 2018, 11:47:33 PM »

It should 'miss' a lot. Unless it's workin'!! Then I love to hear 'em bang away..

Pete

Dave Otto · « **Reply #13 on:** August 16, 2018, 01:48:00 AM »

When you guys get done with your engines you need to make a nice tag for them. I had made a full sized reproduction tag for a friends engine, and when my buddy Max was building his R & V model I decided to see how far I could shrink it down.

Dave

zeeprogrammer · « **Reply #14 on:** August 16, 2018, 02:56:20 AM »

Great videos.

I don't know much about them but it seems to me few hits means a well machined engine.

Also, ditto on what Dave said (which answers the 'what is this?')...but also include a plaque or something with your particulars so that people (descendants, etc.) after you can answer the questions...
"Who made this?"
"When was this made?"
"Where was this made?"

As for "Why?"...I wouldn't bother.

Craig DeShong · « **Reply #15 on:** August 16, 2018, 03:44:08 AM »

Actually, Rocky supplies a tag with the model that I'll apply once it's painted

Craig DeShong · « **Reply #16 on:** September 02, 2018, 09:31:32 PM »

At this point, I’ll call this model finished. It needs to run a few more hours to get broken in really well, but all in all, I’m very pleased with it. I can walk away for a few minutes without coming back to a stalled engine; it’s running much more consistently than it was previously.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUXVuAtmkFo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUXVuAtmkFo</a>

I had to make a change to the fuel pump to stop it from leaking gas down onto the stand, and the centrifugal water pump was a bit of a challenge to make it pump water, though it leaks a bit; thus the drain tray I’ve installed under it. It’s not giving me a steady, uninterrupted flow, but it moves enough water when the engine “hits” for cooling purposes.
It’s made an attractive model and was a delight to build.

Now, time to get back on the Lauson.

Ye-Ole Steam Dude · « **Reply #17 on:** September 02, 2018, 09:42:30 PM »

Craig it is a beauty and has a great industrial sound. Wonderful.

I just watched the video again and could listen to that thing run all day long.

Have a great day,
Thomas

zeeprogrammer · « **Reply #18 on:** September 02, 2018, 09:45:45 PM »

Congrats! Looks and sounds great.

Tennessee Whiskey · « **Reply #19 on:** September 02, 2018, 10:36:37 PM »

Just awesome Craig. How about a tube of BarsLeak

. Guess it’s a Southern thing

Eric

Kim · « **Reply #20 on:** September 02, 2018, 10:55:23 PM »

Very nicely done Craig! Love the engine, it sounds and runs great!
Thanks for posting the video,
Kim

fumopuc · « **Reply #21 on:** September 03, 2018, 04:22:56 AM »

Hi Craig, a beautiful runner very well made. It is pure fun to hear the sound and watch the motion.

Roger B · « **Reply #22 on:** September 03, 2018, 01:30:11 PM »

Smooth runner and an excellent sound

Around 5 misses between hits?

b.lindsey · « **Reply #23 on:** September 03, 2018, 01:33:58 PM »

A beautiful engine Craig. Looks and sounds great!!!

Bill

Craig DeShong · « **Reply #24 on:** September 03, 2018, 09:56:47 PM »

Thanks for the kind comments. I apprecite it. I realize I probably should have posted this video in the showcase-engines section. I'm planning on taking it to its first show this next weekend and maybe i'll take a video there and then post it. Thanks again.

Dave Otto · « **Reply #25 on:** September 03, 2018, 11:25:41 PM »

Very nice Craig; The R&V looks and runs great!

Dave

ShopShoe · « **Reply #26 on:** September 04, 2018, 01:45:38 PM »

That's Nice, Craig.

The whole display is a work of beautiful functionality, both running and just sitting there...

Thank You for posting.

ShopShoe

roger1955 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 08, 2018, 09:00:32 PM »

Hello,
first off, your engine looks great, what color scheme are you going to use? I have seen red and green/yellow?

I have just acquired a partially built one of these. Although I have all the drawings, there is no information on setting up the valve and igniter timing, do you perhaps have some information or guidance to share?

Also the igniter appears to have been made backwards, at least when I compare it to the drawing. The points seem to remain closed, unless opened, (slowly, not cocked and triggered)on the upward stroke of the pushrod. My other engines close the points briefly (cocking) then release them open in a trigger.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

Roger

b.lindsey · « **Reply #28 on:** October 09, 2018, 12:50:04 AM »

Hi Roger and welcome to the forum. When you can, please post an introduction in the "introduce yourself" section so that you can be welcomed properly.

Bill

Craig DeShong · « **Reply #29 on:** October 10, 2018, 10:20:46 PM »

Hi Roger
I’ll try to answer your questions. I tried to make a video but I don’t have the equipment that will focus close enough so I’ll need to do it with stills.

Firstly, the red color is the finished color.

Secondly, The igniter points are open for the majority of the cycle and close only briefly before trip. I hope the following photos will help explain.

You should have sheets 1 & 2 which give front and side views of the completed model. This is the top of sheet 2. I think I have the igniter built and oriented correctly… but I’ve been wrong before.

This is a photo of the igniter explosion drawing. Please note I’ve labeled the part connected to the igniter rotating contact arm via a set screw as the anvil. I’ve also labeled the lever that is cocked and released as the hammer. These terms were on another model I’ve built and I’ve sort of adopted them.

The two springs in the drawing work in the opposite directions. At rest, the hammer is pressed up against the backstop by the spring between the engine frame and the hammer. The anvil is pressed against the hammer by the spring between the anvil and hammer. This photo was taken with the igniter/exhaust valve lifter lever at it's lowest travel. The igniter contacts are open.

As the crankshaft rotates and the igniter/exhaust valve lifter lever moves up, the hammer is cocked. This action winds the spring between the engine frame and the hammer. The anvil follows the hammer rotation, held against it by it's spring until the igniter contacts close. As the hammer continues to rotate the spring tension between the anvil and hammer increases. This is the tinniest motion (maybe ten degrees) until trip release. In the following picture you can see a small space between the pusher arm on the anvil and the hammer. In this picture the igniter contacts are closed (thus the anvil can no longer rotate with the hammer), and the hammer is "cocked".

At igniter trip as in the following photo, the inside spring (between engine frame and hammer) has driven the hammer onto the anvil lever and opened the igniter contacts.

The igniter/exhaust valve lifter lever continues to move up and eventually the exhaust valve rocker presses against the top of the exhaust valve, opening the exhaust valve. In the following photo this lever is at its highest point of travel. Were it to travel any higher it would interfere with the socket head cap screw that pushes the lever over, causing the igniter to trip.

Timing the igniter and exhaust is a balance between the igniter/exhaust valve lifter lever moving low enough so that the hammer will “reset” above the lift notch, getting the igniter to trip at the correct crankshaft rotation, and the igniter/exhaust valve lifter lever not moving high enough to interfere with the above mentioned SHCS, driving it out of alignment so that the igniter no longer trips or it shorts against the igniter anode connector.

There isn’t much movement to play with and I found getting this engine timed right to be a real bear.

I'd start by adjusting the cam gear and igniter/exhaust valve push rod so that the exhaust valve opens right at TDC and closes just before BDC. From there I'd address the igniter, understanding that you might have t move the cam gear a tooth one way or the other to get the igniter to trip at the right place. I found the "right place" to be about 15 degrees before TDC.

Art K · « **Reply #30 on:** October 11, 2018, 02:48:53 AM »

Craig,
It sounds great. It also has a big gap between power pulses which as I understand is really great for a fit & miss. Be careful when you go to a show, because if you're like me, I'll take photos & videos of everyone else's stuff & not my own.
Art

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Author Topic: Root and Vandervoort Vertical (Read 6001 times)