Author Topic: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine  (Read 16595 times)

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12445
  • Hampshire, england.
Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« on: October 14, 2012, 05:37:55 PM »
A few years ago I was given a rather sad Stuart beam that had been started as an apprentice piece. I am not sure if it was originally one engine or was a collection of all the bo-bo's from a number of apprentice engines. I fixed it up and it now works but it is only the basic engine. :???:

Looking in my Stuart catalogue I noted that they used to sell a set of castings for a governor, but they do not list them anyone. I like making governors  ;D but my original set of Stuart drawings does not show the  governor. Does anyone know where I could acquire a set of drawings for the governor ;).

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Bluechip

  • Guest
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2012, 05:46:09 PM »
Jo

If it's the same as for a #9 I got 'em in my paw now.

Big sheet though, and not too good a print.

Dunno if they'll scan.  Copyright anyway ..

Dave BC

EDIT sez DWG 90001 on the top.

Online steamer

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Central Massachusetts, USA
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2012, 05:47:26 PM »
Same boat Jo....I think I have the book on the 9.   

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12445
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2012, 06:02:45 PM »
I have just checked the catalogue: The governor on the 9 has a different part number than the beam's governor.

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Bluechip

  • Guest
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2012, 06:09:45 PM »
I have just checked the catalogue: The governor on the 9 has a different part number than the beam's governor.

Jo

Ah well, such is life.  :'(

Shame really, scanned at 200dpi greyscale, they're more readable than the original ..

BC

Offline smfr

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1195
  • San Francisco Bay Area, California
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 06:18:16 PM »
Oooh, I'd be interested in these too!

Simon

Bluechip

  • Guest
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2012, 06:21:51 PM »
Simon

Which one ?? Stuart #9 or Beam ??

Crystal Ball in for a crt re-gun at the mo.  :Lol:   :Lol:

BC

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6471
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 06:28:17 PM »
Have you got a steel rule handy? Then measure mine :Lol:







You don't really need castings it can all be fabricated.

Its worth contacting Bridport as they say they will be bringing back some of teh engines that were discontinued so maybe the governor as well. Quite a good writeup on thm on MESite

http://modelengineeringwebsite.com/Stuart_Models_move.html

J
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 06:36:14 PM by Jasonb »

Offline smfr

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1195
  • San Francisco Bay Area, California
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 06:29:14 PM »
Which one ?? Stuart #9 or Beam ??

Beam! I have a Stuart Beam looking a bit sparse :D

Simon

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12445
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2012, 06:41:07 PM »
Have you got a steel rule handy? Then measure mine :Lol:


That looks fairly basic :ThumbsUp: just need to work out where to mount it, add a regulator valve, a linkage :thinking:. Thanks

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6471
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 07:37:03 PM »
Mine is mounted where Stuart's suggest. There is a butterfly valve operated by the linkages.

Don't have the drawings now but let me know if you want some sizes to base it on.

J

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6471
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2012, 07:45:33 PM »
Found this on the net, if your eyesight is good it should give you details of some of the parts and as you can see there is actually only three castings - the replacement valve chest cover, valve and the curved pivot bracket. There are more photos of the governor being built on that site. Stuarts also list the drawings for ?9.50 under spares

http://stevewithnell.wordpress.com/author/stevewithnell/page/3/


« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 07:51:55 PM by Jasonb »

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12445
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2012, 08:07:08 PM »
Looking at that drawing it is the same governor for all the engines, so guys, the No 9 governor drawing with a suitable mounting looks like we may have a governor for the beam.

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6471
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2012, 08:24:00 PM »
The old No9 governor is not the same as the beam etc.



J

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12445
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 10:39:11 AM »
I seem to have been able to sketch together the governor, with most of the dimensions I need,  :thinking: I still need to work on that pivot arm and its pivot.

The crank support seems to have been moved outwards to allow for space for the drive pulley (that will muck up my base because I will need to drill more holes :-[ ) I am assuming that the drive pulley on the crank is twice the diameter of the one on the governor, not that it matters. I am still not quite sure how the governor mounts on the base casting.

I am never a great fan of butterfly throttle valves, I have a much simpler design that I use. The linkage arm should be easier enough to measure from the model.

It looks like I could be making another governor.....

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6471
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 01:50:03 PM »
I'll sort those details out for you but the Stuart one is not known for working particularly well and does look a bit chunky.

You could use one of Anthony Mounts designs, the one from the benson would do nicely and mine certainly works, why not add a geared grive shaft rather than a slipping belt like the ME beam uses.


Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12445
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2012, 02:59:14 PM »
I agree that the Stuart governor is rather basic, but then most of the Stuart model designs are, they are excellent beginners engines which most of the wrinkles have been ironed out. Once you start modifying engines how far do you take it? I wouldn't expect the governor on this sized engine to actually work and being spring driven is asking for shaky movement, maybe a rubber "o" ring :thinking: but they hunt :-\.

Anthony does design some nice governors designs, so did Tubal Cain. I know that some people find governors and their fiddly parts a little challenging. I must be getting  :old: because I now enjoy them. I had thought of starting a topic with various model governor designs and how to machine their tricky fiddly bits.

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline smfr

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1195
  • San Francisco Bay Area, California
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2012, 04:40:34 PM »
I had thought of starting a topic with various model governor designs and how to machine their tricky fiddly bits.

Yes please!  :NotWorthy:

Simon

Offline zeeprogrammer

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6372
  • West Chester, PA, USA
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2012, 05:14:15 PM »
I had thought of starting a topic with various model governor designs and how to machine their tricky fiddly bits.

Yes please!  :NotWorthy:

Simon

Seconded! I have a long term project in mind that will require a governor.
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
"To work. To work."
Zee-Another Thread Trasher.

Offline tel

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1657
  • Bathurst District, NSW, Oz.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2012, 08:13:10 PM »
Oh Yea! I'll third that - they are an interesting subject.
The older I get, the better I was.
Lacerta es reptiles quisnam mos non exsisto accuso nusquam

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6471
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2012, 08:18:46 PM »
So long as you start with the balls & springs for a Pickering governor :Lol:

Offline zeeprogrammer

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6372
  • West Chester, PA, USA
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2012, 08:58:23 PM »
Jo,

Early on you mentioned you're not a great fan of butterfly valves and had a simpler design.
What don't you like about the butterfly valve and what's your simpler design?

Thanks.
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
"To work. To work."
Zee-Another Thread Trasher.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12445
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2012, 09:27:18 PM »
So long as you start with the balls & springs for a Pickering governor :Lol:

You just want to see me make six half spheres, attempt to hold them to mill the slot and muck up the alignment when I put them together around the spring steel. Thankfully I do not need a Pickering on any of my engines ;)

 :thinking: The only governor I have underway at the moment is a Hartnell. The most common is a Watt which is probably the most useful for most and I need a couple for my two S&Ps. But some of use have to work....give me a week and I will be on holiday :whoohoo:. I will probably need a break from the DTC, as long as Father Xmas does not side track me ;D.

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Online steamer

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Central Massachusetts, USA
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2012, 09:36:00 PM »
What ...no Inertia governers!......Scandal!


 8)

I'll be watching Jo!

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12445
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2012, 09:51:56 PM »
Zee, sorry butterfly valves.

I have no problem with cutting an ellipse with the appropriate angles on the edges. That is easy: You take a piece of brass bar the diameter of the port, cut an angle on the end at the correct angle, stick a piece of hard brass on it, turn the flat to match the bar and Bob's your uncle one valve.  :ShakeHead: It is that fiddly bit of poking it into the slot on the valve spindle, getting it at the  wrong correct angle and then securing it with screws which unless the shaft is pretty big (> 3.2mm) are holding on by a whisker.

No on small engines (most of mine have steam pipes of 4mm I/D) I cheat, if I want a working valve I make the spindle bigger than the steam port (you can normally hide this diameter under the gland) then cross drill the shaft, to let the steam through. You can fully open this in 90 deg of movement. Ok so it is not as sharp as a butterfly, but that little thieving gnome in the workshop has so many of my Lady S's valves hidden away  :facepalm: where I dropped them on the floor trying to mount them. I only do big butterflys now, 6.35 mm+.

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12445
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2012, 09:58:46 PM »
What ...no Inertia governors!......Scandal!

We were talking steam engines rather than gas: both my Centaur and R&B have variations on a Watt. I am sure someone has a woodpecker, who would like to "chirp" in ;).

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline zeeprogrammer

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6372
  • West Chester, PA, USA
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2012, 11:08:08 PM »
Thanks Jo!
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
"To work. To work."
Zee-Another Thread Trasher.

Offline smfr

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1195
  • San Francisco Bay Area, California
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2012, 11:25:21 PM »
Zee, sorry butterfly valves.

I have no problem with cutting an ellipse with the appropriate angles on the edges. That is easy: You take a piece of brass bar the diameter of the port, cut an angle on the end at the correct angle, stick a piece of hard brass on it, turn the flat to match the bar and Bob's your uncle one valve.  :ShakeHead: It is that fiddly bit of poking it into the slot on the valve spindle, getting it at the  wrong correct angle and then securing it with screws which unless the shaft is pretty big (> 3.2mm) are holding on by a whisker.

No on small engines (most of mine have steam pipes of 4mm I/D) I cheat, if I want a working valve I make the spindle bigger than the steam port (you can normally hide this diameter under the gland) then cross drill the shaft, to let the steam through. You can fully open this in 90 deg of movement. Ok so it is not as sharp as a butterfly, but that little thieving gnome in the workshop has so many of my Lady S's valves hidden away  :facepalm: where I dropped them on the floor trying to mount them. I only do big butterflys now, 6.35 mm+.

Very interesting, but hard to understand for folks like me who've never built a valve from scratch. I think we're due for another thread on valve building  :NotWorthy:

Simon

Online steamer

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Central Massachusetts, USA
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2012, 11:38:43 PM »
What ...no Inertia governors!......Scandal!

We were talking steam engines rather than gas: both my Centaur and R&B have variations on a Watt. I am sure someone has a woodpecker, who would like to "chirp" in ;).

Jo

Ahh Poppy cock and boulderdash!   Steam engines absolutely used inertia governers.....I'll post   "Ball Engine" and "Armington and Sims" were famous for their flywheel mounted inertia governers which controled cutoff directly by rotating the eccentrics....but its all academic ....I'm not going to buid one! :ROFL:


I've yet to buidl a governer!    I'll be watching Jo!   Learn me!      :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline zeeprogrammer

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6372
  • West Chester, PA, USA
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2012, 11:40:30 PM »
Very interesting, but hard to understand for folks like me who've never built a valve from scratch. I think we're due for another thread on valve building

Hee hee. I had the same thought but didn't say anything (yet). I started doing some googling on butterfly valves, valves, and governors earlier today. Much to learn.

A topic on valves would be great but I suspect it's a big big topic. Valves for steam, valves for flow control, actuators for valves...on and on. So there may need to be several topics.

I'm okay with that! I just can't be an author but I'm a very willing reader.

Just saw your post Dave. "Learn me." Very southern midwest for me! Although I usually got "I'll learn you!".
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
"To work. To work."
Zee-Another Thread Trasher.

Online steamer

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Central Massachusetts, USA
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2012, 12:05:23 AM »
As I remember Tel made an steam engine with a inertia governer......Tel?

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Captain Jerry

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 992
  • Summerfield, FL USA
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2012, 12:29:29 AM »
Jo

Please open up a topic on governors.  I am very interested in method of producing the small links and levers. The whole concept of managing the power output of an engine automatically is good stuff.  A few years ago I stood and watched a gearless hit or miss engine that used a swinging, bobbing weight that would occasionally jump up and smack a lever and the engine would fire.  I never quite understood how it worked or what it was called but it looked very much like a woodpecker.  Is that what you were referring to?  Tell us about it if you can

.
What ...no Inertia governors!......Scandal!

We were talking steam engines rather than gas: both my Centaur and R&B have variations on a Watt. I am sure someone has a woodpecker, who would like to "chirp" in ;) .

Jo

I think it is more correct to think of governors as controlling power rather than speed.  They get their input by sensing speed but their output controls the engine power by increasing/decreasing throttle setting, or causing the hit or miss engine to hit.  The engine slows or speeds up as a result of decreased or increased power.  I guess that sounds like nitt picking but its worth thinking about.

Tel

If you have an inertial governor design that advances the eccentric, I sure would like to see it. 

Jerry

There are thing that you can do and some things you can't do.
Don't worry about it. try it anyway.

Online steamer

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Central Massachusetts, USA
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2012, 12:33:38 AM »
Jo

I can positively state that I read EVERYTHING you post!    :NotWorthy:

By all means post a thread on governers...of any type ...for any engine!

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline tel

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1657
  • Bathurst District, NSW, Oz.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2012, 04:09:45 AM »
Quote
As I remember Tel made an steam engine with a inertia governer..

Yes I did - loosely based on the Ames as shown in the New Catechism - now sadly sold on, but it was, and presumably still is, a great runner.

The older I get, the better I was.
Lacerta es reptiles quisnam mos non exsisto accuso nusquam

Offline tel

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1657
  • Bathurst District, NSW, Oz.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2012, 04:16:05 AM »
My take on the governor and running at speed

The older I get, the better I was.
Lacerta es reptiles quisnam mos non exsisto accuso nusquam

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6471
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2012, 07:57:20 AM »
I'll put a pic of the butterfly valve from the stuart up later on the Governor thread when I get in from work, we are not all old codgers Jo!!

I've also got a pic of the simple barrel type that Jo talks about



J

PS e-mail on its way shortly

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12445
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Governor for the Stuart Beam Engine
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2012, 09:13:29 AM »
I've also got a pic of the simple barrel type that Jo talks about



That's the type :ThumbsUp:

Jo
Usus est optimum magister