Author Topic: Best type of vice.  (Read 4108 times)

Offline john mills

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2018, 11:10:17 AM »
you have to see what is available to get local.do look at the height not much good it it takes all your height room
also look at the weight some of these are heavy and will take a lot of your machines load carrying capacity
a lot of these lighter machines the load capacity is not that high  but most of all you have to get it on and of the table and they can be a heavy lift  i could not lift a lot of the vices i have used with out having a crane.

Offline warrenmaker

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2018, 11:36:45 AM »
Thanks again for all the input and ideas guys.
Quite a few have mentioned concerns about using up to much vertical room so just for the record, here is a link to my mill.
I perhaps went a little overboard when I bought it. LOL   My wife certainly thought so ! :hammerbash:
Actually it is extremely accurate for something coming out of China. I only get 0.015mm  (.0001")deviation over the entire 600mm (24") x axis travel.  :o

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M579

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2018, 01:05:59 PM »
Hi warrenmaker,

Beautiful Mill and it must be a pleasure to use.

Thomas
Thomas

Offline Baner

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2018, 02:32:56 PM »
That's a fair bit of Mill there! With the HP you've got available at those spindles you really need a lot of vice clamping pressure to make the most of the power. As Mcgyver mentioned the precision grinding vices are not known for their heavy clamping abilities. As you've found there are few choices at reasonable prices in Oz. The Vertex version of your vice is likely to be the best bet:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/V304
There's probably enough table space to go up a size if necessary.
However there is something to be said about having different sorts of vices available. What Grinding vices lack in clamping they make up for in versatility.
So you could:
- Upgrade the vice you've got.
- Upgrade the vice you've got and invest in a smaller grinder vice as well. ;D
- Strip down the vice you've got, give it a full clean and debur and see if you can find a bit more precision that way. (If you haven't already)
- Get a smaller grinding vice. You've enough table real estate to have two vices set up at once, and can have the Big vice for roughing and non critical work and the Grinding vice for finishing and precision.

Whatever you do you'll still find the need for some other vice at some stage. That's the trouble with machine tools, you'll always need more tooling...

Dave.

Offline steamer

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2018, 02:39:13 PM »
I'm told that Kurt has a new 4" coming out, and that you can pre order.     Most of our bench top mills would want something that size.

I have the 5" Glycern on my mill and I love it...although perhaps its a bit big.


Cheap vises are like cheap micrometer's....you can never really trust them.    Buy good quality....ONCE.

Dave
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Damned ijjit!

Offline Mcgyver

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2018, 02:53:27 PM »
Interesting to note Stephan highly recommends Precision engineering vice even for milling.

Many do use them, parts get made and videos abound..... its not like won't work at all.  I'd use one too if its what i had, or possibly on a very light small mill.   But they are grinding vises and I have never seen an experienced man use one for milling or even seen one mounted on a mill.  They are frustrating to use (moving the pin) and don't have the clamping power.  Maybe without a comparable small anglelock there is a case for their use with the smallest of benchtop mills, but you've got a good size machine. 

I know I sound dangerous close to telling a bunch of people they are 'doing it wrong' which is never appreciated.  Apologies; that's not the intent.  Just trying to give good advice for some asking "what should I get for this mill".  Its astounding the prices you face, ouch!  Maybe look for a no name anglelock, or even an older style mill vise.  They're not as nice, but can do all the same work and with a set hold downs work even better than an anglelock  for some jobs

 

Offline steamer

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2018, 03:12:36 PM »
Interesting to note Stephan highly recommends Precision engineering vice even for milling.

Many do use them, parts get made and videos abound..... its not like won't work at all.  I'd use one too if its what i had, or possibly on a very light small mill.   But they are grinding vises and I have never seen an experienced man use one for milling or even seen one mounted on a mill.  They are frustrating to use (moving the pin) and don't have the clamping power.  Maybe without a comparable small anglelock there is a case for their use with the smallest of benchtop mills, but you've got a good size machine. 

I know I sound dangerous close to telling a bunch of people they are 'doing it wrong' which is never appreciated.  Apologies; that's not the intent.  Just trying to give good advice for some asking "what should I get for this mill".  Its astounding the prices you face, ouch!  Maybe look for a no name anglelock, or even an older style mill vise.  They're not as nice, but can do all the same work and with a set hold downs work even better than an anglelock  for some jobs


gotta Agree with McGyver here.  I used one for a while  3"...on my big Van Norman as I saved for a Kurt.    It didn't have much in the way of grip and the vice had to be mounted on paper to keep it from skidding around on the table.   Even with 4 clamps on it.      The Anglelock was far better.
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Offline Larry Sw

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2018, 04:04:09 PM »
I agree that you can only buy that which is financially available.  Getting even a 4" Kurt to OZ would cost a bunch.
I have a Rockwell Vertical Mill with a 6x24" table and enough headroom to not worry too much about it. Usually.
When I was outfitting the Mill I got one of the cheap chinese 4" vises with the rotary included. The base wasn't flat
so I ended up scraping it in eventually.  I used the thing for 5 or 6 years.  The anglock mechanism never seemed to
really work very well. Smack the work piece down on the parallels until they didn't move. Tighten a little more and
the parallels would just slide out.  Try to smack it down again and it woldn't move.  Jaws not Parallel most likely ?
So a couple of years ago I had some extra money (that means the wife didn't know about it) and took advantage
of an Enco Discount + free shipping and splurged on a Kurt D40 vise.  I had been watching ebay for a few months
hoping to score a good deal on a used D40 but they go for a real Premium. I notice the difference every time I use it.
I still need to smack the work piece down a little but it stays put after that.  It depends on how high in the jaws you
have to mount it. If you only have 1/8" left on top of the parallels then you need to giver er a smack down.  If the part
is sunk deep in the jaws it's OK and stays put.
I'm pretty sure that a Kurt 6" vise would be just too big for my mill and restrict Y travel too much.
This is the new Kurt 4" replacement for the D40:
https://www.kurtworkholding.com/dx4-crossover-vise
oops, on further edit: the new Kurt does NOT allow side mount as the casting stick out from the side a little for mounting slots.
More versatile than the older one as you can mount it on end or side.
on edit: I thought about getting a comparable 4" Glacern but by that time they were getting pricey too and the Kurt on sale and
with free shipping was about the same price. So no real contest.
Larry S
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 04:23:27 PM by Larry Sw »

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2018, 04:22:30 PM »
Thanks for the link Larry, nice looking vise for sure!!

Offline petertha

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2018, 05:39:27 PM »
That's a big boy mill, you need and can justify a big boy vise. Don't cheap out now! LOL. That would have been useful information up front. A small hobbyist mill up through an RF-45 type will yield a different vise decision vs. something closer to full blown Bridgeport style. That is the specific range of where Kurts & their peers fall under.

Other factors to consider: replacement parts, alternative jaws and accessories such as stops that clamp on the jaw lip or location points in the vise. Here a brand name (or a company that copies a brand name's dimensions) may be desirable. I love my Bison for all its accuracy, but I may be S.O.L. if I ever had to buy replacement jaws. Also because the backside are at a prismatic angle I have to come up with another solution than a simple lip clamp style stop. Not a biggy, just mentioning other factors I have come to know.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 05:44:28 PM by petertha »

Offline petertha

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2018, 06:10:17 PM »
But they are grinding vises and I have never seen an experienced man use one for milling or even seen one mounted on a mill.  They are frustrating to use (moving the pin) and don't have the clamping power.  Maybe without a comparable small anglelock there is a case for their use with the smallest of benchtop mills, but you've got a good size machine. 


I'm no expert but I think the step change that has occurred is availability of accurate (lets call them) grinding style vises from Asia. Have a look at a Suburban/USA grinding vise from a decade ago. They were probably +2 times the cost of a USA Kurt milling vise, so would be misplaced on a mill table. But now you can buy one from Asia, hardened & ground to within 0.001" for what I consider a bargain even compared to the block of tool steel it was made from. Yes, some models can be frustrating to move the pin, but as I indicated, that also may be a function of the vise model itself. I fixed mine with some relatively simple turning & its perfectly fine. I've watched enough Stefan vids where he is putting work in & out, doesnt look like a big deal to me. These certainly are not my main go-to vise but they are good value for secondary options as mentioned. It loosely reminds me of Asia 123 blocks. The block is fine for most 0.001" hobby purposes, at a fraction of the price vs. domestic equivalents at the time. Now the through hole / taped hole business... nobody has ever been able to figure out the non-utility of that. Likely a design fopah that just keeps perpetuating on the production line. Sometimes imports are fine & you are set. Sometimes they can be treated as kits & you improve them to standard. Other times it warrants a pass altogether & you are left with pursuing other options.

Yes, now that we see the size of the machine I would agree the grinding style vises are not a good option for a primary vise.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Best type of vice.
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2018, 07:18:30 PM »
Yes knowing the size of machine from the start would have been useful.

I've managed OK with my 100mm Vertex for ten years or so but recently also had access to 30 & 90mm Precision (grinding) vices and 100mm & 80mm universal vices and have made use of them all depending on the job in hand where one was more suitable than the other so there is probably no single " best vice" as it is only going to be the best for certain things.

With the cost of some of the vices being linked to I could buy all 5 of these ones, a good bottle of wine and still have change for some castings and make working engines :)

 

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