Best type of vice.

[warrenmaker]

Hey guys.

My Chinese vice that came with my mill is woefully inaccurate. Just wondering what style of vice you guys all use.

I am tossing up between a 125mm (5") modular vice  http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/13%2B0343&ViewAction=ViewProduct

Or maybe even one of these.. http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/13%2B0120&ViewAction=ViewProduct

My current vice is the Anglelock style.

Any opinions appreciated thanks..

[Jo]

If I had was willing to pay the money I would like one of those modular vices 

The vice my boys own:

H has a 100mm vice normally bolted to his bed.

Tgs varies between his Swiss 100mm and his Cincinnati 150mm vices. More often as not things are bolted to his bed

As you will notice they all have their rotating bases attached as my milling machines are not as restricted in head height as other people believe their machines are 


I also have a series of toolmaker vices that are either used as vices in vices or on Sexy/the BCA. I made a 75mm rotating base vice especially for Sexy   

Jo

[john mills]

from the vices  you are looking at the first one i would pick. it looks like the hight is low which can be handy on small machines. The second one is what is used on grinding machines on a magnetic table  could be used in some special cases but the first one is the general milling vice.At home I have a chinese made 6" vice with a swivel base that has proven to be up to the job, i use it on a vintage horizontal mill.
I am tempted to have a look at
the 125mm one to use on a smaller machine i have now.would be easier to lift on and of the table.I don't have
any problems using the bigger vice even for small jobs.  Know it will hold square and it will hold.
when i was at work i used a hydraulic 8" vice.  latter when we had a few cnc mills as well that could be used it was used on a the bigger heavier cnc mill.There was 3    6"vices so they were used on the lighter machines .
the last job i had was running a small very light machining centre it had a vertex 6"vice  was ok too.
   buy as good a vice as you can pay for.   

[kvom]

I have larger machines, but for a milling vise I'd want replaceable jaws so that I could machine soft jaws from aluminum as needed.  A Kurt 4-5" would be my choice, although it seems any equipment in Oz is expensive.

I have a 3" machinist vise like your second one that I use to hold small parts and then hold in the larger vise.  And as well it's useful for surface grinding non-magnetic materials.

[Mcgyver]

I would recommend a Kurt.  You can spend more for a fancy Italian one, but they are awfully tough to beat for accuracy and performance.  I've a couple of 6" vises, a D30 (not longer made afaik) and am making a D20.  They're just a great design.

An accurate and solid vise is fundamental to good work.  Its one of the very few things for which I've ponied up the cash to buy a quality one new.

The only disadvantage is that the work surface things rest on is two ways instead of a solid surface with a centre section that does not support.  Its easy to get around with parallels.

Concerns with your links?  1) probably Chinese at that price, I had a similarly priced Chinese vise, had to regrind the whole bloody thing.   When you get a Kurt you don't need to grind it.  Accuracy is expensive.  2) that's a grinding vise, it'll make you crazy moving the pin all the time and has a lot less clamping power than a milling vise

[warrenmaker]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Kurt name keeps popping up; but they simply are not available in Australia.
Neither are any of the top American brands as far as I am aware. They are simply to expensive with exchange rates.

 I do have a link to a German site but I am unsure as to the quality also.   

http://www.shop.santool.de/de/spanntechnik/schraubstoecke/cnc-schraubstock/typ-cmc-zentra/schraubstock/praezisions-maschinenschraubstock-typ-cmc-125-345.html?bruttonetto=without

This one would cost about 800 Australian dollars landed. I am prepared to pay it... but only if I am sure the quality is there. There are quoted tolerances so I guess thats a step in the right direction at least

[petertha]

A 6" Kurt is very nice but takes up a lot of table real estate, particularly in the vertical sense. I have an RF-45 style mill so I don't have a lot of headroom as-is. A 4" is better but I still prefer this style of precision vise.

http://bisonvise.com/Precision-vise-choices/precision-modular/bison-modular-precision-type6620.htm
http://www.sowatool.com/Catalogue/9/330?Vise+Type=Modular+Vises

I bought a 5" Bison on an Ebay blow-out sale & it is deadly accurate. I don't know if they make them anymore because I just see the conventional cast body & Bison is a spendy name here in NAm. But these vise styles are sufficiently rigid for this size mill & you gain more headroom for the same jaw width. There is a very similar version under the GS name in my neck of the woods although I have seen it under different labels. The good ones are made in Taiwan I believe so just watch out for similar looking knockoffs that may not be as good. Another advantage is it is more adaptable to hobby machine varying table T-slot layouts because hold-down uses a number of clamp blocks along the base slot. The Kurt style have the typical bolt lug so sometimes that puts you either in or out relative to where you would like to be. I feel they are just meant to be on bigger mills.

Check out these videos, 2 of my favorite YouTube machinists

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckknLkwx9Sw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckknLkwx9Sw</a>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5m-kA_Oq_4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5m-kA_Oq_4</a>

[Mike R]

I got a vise from these guys, nice quality, not quite as expensive as a Kurt. Its also more versatile than a standard angle-lock type for my CNC mill (no swivel base needed)
https://www.glacern.com/gpv_615
If you can wait (a half year!) they usually have sales around American thanksgiving (black Friday). 
Shipping will hurt as its UPS - they will quote you (no shipping pricing online).

Other vendors also carry a very similar vise (probably the same casting) - Shars is an example and a bit cheaper too:
http://www.shars.com/products/workholding/vise/6-660u-cnc-milling-machine-vise-0-0004-1
Good luck - in Canada we have a hard time getting things in cheap compared to our American neighbors - I can't imagine the burn you must feel every time you order something and the shipping is as much (or more) than the item.


Mike

[petertha]

I looked at that Glacern too. I bought a nice chuck from them & pretty sure its the good quality Taiwan? stuff that we see under GS label.

Again confirm the vise dimensions particularly in vertical sense if you have anything less than a Bridgeport style mill. Subtract drill chuck + drill, or boring head + tool (tapping head or end mill collet...etc) at maximum mill head extension or table lowered position. Net compare that to resultant work you can accommodate in vise jaws. If you add the rotary base casting underneath, less room still. That's why I went to the low profile style vise on my particular mill. Your mileage may vary.

[Jasonb]

I suppose it comes down to what accuracy you feel you need. I see that German Santool one has a max lift of 0.02mm, I tested three vices that I have to hand recently .

The Vertex that I have had for about 10years and have done all my engines on gave less lift that and has no feature in the jaw to pull work down.

The far eastern Versatile much like the basic Kurt that is now only made in the very big size gave one tenth the lift quoted in the link to the German site

Far eastern "precision" type vice could not measure any lift

So do you get much for paying 5 times as much apart from a feeling that you must produce better work as you have "better" tools?

This shows the lift of the work, no tapping down

[warrenmaker]

HMMM... much to contemplate. I did find the Bison reseller in Oz. $990 for the 125 mm. (5").

More than twice the price I was contemplating for the one from the first link I showed back at the start of this thread. I guess I am thinking if I buy a good one it will last me the rest of my engineering life.
 So 1000 bucks divided by 20 is only 50 dollars a year. Small price to pay for high accuracy....   

Thanks again for all your input guys.  Interesting to note Stephan highly recommends Precision engineering vice even for milling.

[Jo]

So do you get much for paying 5 times as much apart from a feeling that you must produce better work as you have "better" tools?

Think of it like drinking wine: You can get equally drunk drinking the under £5 bottle of plonk as the over £20 stuff - but one does not drink wine to get drunk 

Jo

[Firebird]

Hi

I bought mine from here

https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices/Precision-Tool-Vices-Type-2

Brilliant and very accurate. because of the way the jaw clamps it pulls tight and also pulls down so there is no jaw lift.

Cheers

Rich

[petertha]

I have a progressive set of the smaller offshore vises like the previously mentioned arceurotrade link. I think they are excellent value. I sometimes put them in within my main big vise at different orientations or on angle blocks or attached to rotary table. If I had a small mill I would have no qualms about buying a 'big' vise of this kind even if they seem to be more associated with grinders or other applications.

Of course its impossible to determine if Chinese vise from supplier A is better or worse than B. So best to go off someone with a good experience from a specific vendor & hope it remains consistent. Its impossible to judge by pictures alone when they all look similar. The Taiwan made ones seem to be quite good, a notch above what I'm about to describe.

Where mine seem to vary in quality is the clamping detente mechanism. Some are OK. Others..... 
For example [pics] the main block & jaws are hardened & ground to very accurate tolerances. Nice overall finish, jaw slides nicely, no slop. Good bang for buck so far. Then you look at the underside - the business end responsible for clamping & unfortunately what you deal with every time you tighten or loosen the jaws. The notches look like they were gnawed by a rat and the T-nut was hopelessly sloppy in the track & actually dropping free & rotating out of position unless the bolt turn play was just so. I Dremeled off the burrs, cleaned out the (heat treat oil?) mung & made a new properly dimension T-nut, meaning both the main boss & engaging end pins. Now its silky smooth & functions as it should. My bigger 4" version of this vise didn't have these issues & yet was purchased from the same importer. Strange.

[petertha]

I did find the Bison reseller in Oz. $990 for the 125 mm. (5"). More than twice the price I was contemplating for the one from the first link I showed

That's the situation here too, Bison = nutty prices. Same goes for their chucks. Nice tooling but not 2X nicer to justify 2X price. Once upon a time they were excellent value relative to big name brands. I don't know what happened if it was trade taxation, or middleman effect but they are spendy. If the GS vise is anything like other tooling I've acquired under that name, I think it would be pretty decent & its obviously modeled after the same size & mechanism concept.

[john mills]

you have to see what is available to get local.do look at the height not much good it it takes all your height room
also look at the weight some of these are heavy and will take a lot of your machines load carrying capacity
a lot of these lighter machines the load capacity is not that high  but most of all you have to get it on and of the table and they can be a heavy lift  i could not lift a lot of the vices i have used with out having a crane.

[warrenmaker]

Thanks again for all the input and ideas guys.
Quite a few have mentioned concerns about using up to much vertical room so just for the record, here is a link to my mill.
I perhaps went a little overboard when I bought it. LOL   My wife certainly thought so !
Actually it is extremely accurate for something coming out of China. I only get 0.015mm  (.0001")deviation over the entire 600mm (24") x axis travel. 

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M579

[Ye-Ole Steam Dude]

Hi warrenmaker,

Beautiful Mill and it must be a pleasure to use.

Thomas

[Baner]

That's a fair bit of Mill there! With the HP you've got available at those spindles you really need a lot of vice clamping pressure to make the most of the power. As Mcgyver mentioned the precision grinding vices are not known for their heavy clamping abilities. As you've found there are few choices at reasonable prices in Oz. The Vertex version of your vice is likely to be the best bet:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/V304
There's probably enough table space to go up a size if necessary.
However there is something to be said about having different sorts of vices available. What Grinding vices lack in clamping they make up for in versatility.
So you could:
- Upgrade the vice you've got.
- Upgrade the vice you've got and invest in a smaller grinder vice as well.
- Strip down the vice you've got, give it a full clean and debur and see if you can find a bit more precision that way. (If you haven't already)
- Get a smaller grinding vice. You've enough table real estate to have two vices set up at once, and can have the Big vice for roughing and non critical work and the Grinding vice for finishing and precision.

Whatever you do you'll still find the need for some other vice at some stage. That's the trouble with machine tools, you'll always need more tooling...

Dave.

[steamer]

I'm told that Kurt has a new 4" coming out, and that you can pre order.     Most of our bench top mills would want something that size.

I have the 5" Glycern on my mill and I love it...although perhaps its a bit big.


Cheap vises are like cheap micrometer's....you can never really trust them.    Buy good quality....ONCE.

Dave

[Mcgyver]

Interesting to note Stephan highly recommends Precision engineering vice even for milling.

Many do use them, parts get made and videos abound..... its not like won't work at all.  I'd use one too if its what i had, or possibly on a very light small mill.   But they are grinding vises and I have never seen an experienced man use one for milling or even seen one mounted on a mill.  They are frustrating to use (moving the pin) and don't have the clamping power.  Maybe without a comparable small anglelock there is a case for their use with the smallest of benchtop mills, but you've got a good size machine. 

I know I sound dangerous close to telling a bunch of people they are 'doing it wrong' which is never appreciated.  Apologies; that's not the intent.  Just trying to give good advice for some asking "what should I get for this mill".  Its astounding the prices you face, ouch!  Maybe look for a no name anglelock, or even an older style mill vise.  They're not as nice, but can do all the same work and with a set hold downs work even better than an anglelock  for some jobs

 

[steamer]

Interesting to note Stephan highly recommends Precision engineering vice even for milling.

Many do use them, parts get made and videos abound..... its not like won't work at all.  I'd use one too if its what i had, or possibly on a very light small mill.   But they are grinding vises and I have never seen an experienced man use one for milling or even seen one mounted on a mill.  They are frustrating to use (moving the pin) and don't have the clamping power.  Maybe without a comparable small anglelock there is a case for their use with the smallest of benchtop mills, but you've got a good size machine. 

I know I sound dangerous close to telling a bunch of people they are 'doing it wrong' which is never appreciated.  Apologies; that's not the intent.  Just trying to give good advice for some asking "what should I get for this mill".  Its astounding the prices you face, ouch!  Maybe look for a no name anglelock, or even an older style mill vise.  They're not as nice, but can do all the same work and with a set hold downs work even better than an anglelock  for some jobs

gotta Agree with McGyver here.  I used one for a while  3"...on my big Van Norman as I saved for a Kurt.    It didn't have much in the way of grip and the vice had to be mounted on paper to keep it from skidding around on the table.   Even with 4 clamps on it.      The Anglelock was far better.

[Larry Sw]

I agree that you can only buy that which is financially available.  Getting even a 4" Kurt to OZ would cost a bunch.
I have a Rockwell Vertical Mill with a 6x24" table and enough headroom to not worry too much about it. Usually.
When I was outfitting the Mill I got one of the cheap chinese 4" vises with the rotary included. The base wasn't flat
so I ended up scraping it in eventually.  I used the thing for 5 or 6 years.  The anglock mechanism never seemed to
really work very well. Smack the work piece down on the parallels until they didn't move. Tighten a little more and
the parallels would just slide out.  Try to smack it down again and it woldn't move.  Jaws not Parallel most likely ?
So a couple of years ago I had some extra money (that means the wife didn't know about it) and took advantage
of an Enco Discount + free shipping and splurged on a Kurt D40 vise.  I had been watching ebay for a few months
hoping to score a good deal on a used D40 but they go for a real Premium. I notice the difference every time I use it.
I still need to smack the work piece down a little but it stays put after that.  It depends on how high in the jaws you
have to mount it. If you only have 1/8" left on top of the parallels then you need to giver er a smack down.  If the part
is sunk deep in the jaws it's OK and stays put.
I'm pretty sure that a Kurt 6" vise would be just too big for my mill and restrict Y travel too much.
This is the new Kurt 4" replacement for the D40:
https://www.kurtworkholding.com/dx4-crossover-vise
oops, on further edit: the new Kurt does NOT allow side mount as the casting stick out from the side a little for mounting slots.
More versatile than the older one as you can mount it on end or side.
on edit: I thought about getting a comparable 4" Glacern but by that time they were getting pricey too and the Kurt on sale and
with free shipping was about the same price. So no real contest.
Larry S

[b.lindsey]

Thanks for the link Larry, nice looking vise for sure!!

[petertha]

That's a big boy mill, you need and can justify a big boy vise. Don't cheap out now! LOL. That would have been useful information up front. A small hobbyist mill up through an RF-45 type will yield a different vise decision vs. something closer to full blown Bridgeport style. That is the specific range of where Kurts & their peers fall under.

Other factors to consider: replacement parts, alternative jaws and accessories such as stops that clamp on the jaw lip or location points in the vise. Here a brand name (or a company that copies a brand name's dimensions) may be desirable. I love my Bison for all its accuracy, but I may be S.O.L. if I ever had to buy replacement jaws. Also because the backside are at a prismatic angle I have to come up with another solution than a simple lip clamp style stop. Not a biggy, just mentioning other factors I have come to know.

[petertha]

But they are grinding vises and I have never seen an experienced man use one for milling or even seen one mounted on a mill.  They are frustrating to use (moving the pin) and don't have the clamping power.  Maybe without a comparable small anglelock there is a case for their use with the smallest of benchtop mills, but you've got a good size machine. 


I'm no expert but I think the step change that has occurred is availability of accurate (lets call them) grinding style vises from Asia. Have a look at a Suburban/USA grinding vise from a decade ago. They were probably +2 times the cost of a USA Kurt milling vise, so would be misplaced on a mill table. But now you can buy one from Asia, hardened & ground to within 0.001" for what I consider a bargain even compared to the block of tool steel it was made from. Yes, some models can be frustrating to move the pin, but as I indicated, that also may be a function of the vise model itself. I fixed mine with some relatively simple turning & its perfectly fine. I've watched enough Stefan vids where he is putting work in & out, doesnt look like a big deal to me. These certainly are not my main go-to vise but they are good value for secondary options as mentioned. It loosely reminds me of Asia 123 blocks. The block is fine for most 0.001" hobby purposes, at a fraction of the price vs. domestic equivalents at the time. Now the through hole / taped hole business... nobody has ever been able to figure out the non-utility of that. Likely a design fopah that just keeps perpetuating on the production line. Sometimes imports are fine & you are set. Sometimes they can be treated as kits & you improve them to standard. Other times it warrants a pass altogether & you are left with pursuing other options.

Yes, now that we see the size of the machine I would agree the grinding style vises are not a good option for a primary vise.

[Jasonb]

Yes knowing the size of machine from the start would have been useful.

I've managed OK with my 100mm Vertex for ten years or so but recently also had access to 30 & 90mm Precision (grinding) vices and 100mm & 80mm universal vices and have made use of them all depending on the job in hand where one was more suitable than the other so there is probably no single " best vice" as it is only going to be the best for certain things.

With the cost of some of the vices being linked to I could buy all 5 of these ones, a good bottle of wine and still have change for some castings and make working engines