Best type of vice.

[warrenmaker]

Hey guys.

My Chinese vice that came with my mill is woefully inaccurate. Just wondering what style of vice you guys all use.

I am tossing up between a 125mm (5") modular vice  http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/13%2B0343&ViewAction=ViewProduct

Or maybe even one of these.. http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/13%2B0120&ViewAction=ViewProduct

My current vice is the Anglelock style.

Any opinions appreciated thanks..

[Jo]

If I had was willing to pay the money I would like one of those modular vices 

The vice my boys own:

H has a 100mm vice normally bolted to his bed.

Tgs varies between his Swiss 100mm and his Cincinnati 150mm vices. More often as not things are bolted to his bed

As you will notice they all have their rotating bases attached as my milling machines are not as restricted in head height as other people believe their machines are 


I also have a series of toolmaker vices that are either used as vices in vices or on Sexy/the BCA. I made a 75mm rotating base vice especially for Sexy   

Jo

[john mills]

from the vices  you are looking at the first one i would pick. it looks like the hight is low which can be handy on small machines. The second one is what is used on grinding machines on a magnetic table  could be used in some special cases but the first one is the general milling vice.At home I have a chinese made 6" vice with a swivel base that has proven to be up to the job, i use it on a vintage horizontal mill.
I am tempted to have a look at
the 125mm one to use on a smaller machine i have now.would be easier to lift on and of the table.I don't have
any problems using the bigger vice even for small jobs.  Know it will hold square and it will hold.
when i was at work i used a hydraulic 8" vice.  latter when we had a few cnc mills as well that could be used it was used on a the bigger heavier cnc mill.There was 3    6"vices so they were used on the lighter machines .
the last job i had was running a small very light machining centre it had a vertex 6"vice  was ok too.
   buy as good a vice as you can pay for.   

[kvom]

I have larger machines, but for a milling vise I'd want replaceable jaws so that I could machine soft jaws from aluminum as needed.  A Kurt 4-5" would be my choice, although it seems any equipment in Oz is expensive.

I have a 3" machinist vise like your second one that I use to hold small parts and then hold in the larger vise.  And as well it's useful for surface grinding non-magnetic materials.

[Mcgyver]

I would recommend a Kurt.  You can spend more for a fancy Italian one, but they are awfully tough to beat for accuracy and performance.  I've a couple of 6" vises, a D30 (not longer made afaik) and am making a D20.  They're just a great design.

An accurate and solid vise is fundamental to good work.  Its one of the very few things for which I've ponied up the cash to buy a quality one new.

The only disadvantage is that the work surface things rest on is two ways instead of a solid surface with a centre section that does not support.  Its easy to get around with parallels.

Concerns with your links?  1) probably Chinese at that price, I had a similarly priced Chinese vise, had to regrind the whole bloody thing.   When you get a Kurt you don't need to grind it.  Accuracy is expensive.  2) that's a grinding vise, it'll make you crazy moving the pin all the time and has a lot less clamping power than a milling vise

[warrenmaker]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Kurt name keeps popping up; but they simply are not available in Australia.
Neither are any of the top American brands as far as I am aware. They are simply to expensive with exchange rates.

 I do have a link to a German site but I am unsure as to the quality also.   

http://www.shop.santool.de/de/spanntechnik/schraubstoecke/cnc-schraubstock/typ-cmc-zentra/schraubstock/praezisions-maschinenschraubstock-typ-cmc-125-345.html?bruttonetto=without

This one would cost about 800 Australian dollars landed. I am prepared to pay it... but only if I am sure the quality is there. There are quoted tolerances so I guess thats a step in the right direction at least

[petertha]

A 6" Kurt is very nice but takes up a lot of table real estate, particularly in the vertical sense. I have an RF-45 style mill so I don't have a lot of headroom as-is. A 4" is better but I still prefer this style of precision vise.

http://bisonvise.com/Precision-vise-choices/precision-modular/bison-modular-precision-type6620.htm
http://www.sowatool.com/Catalogue/9/330?Vise+Type=Modular+Vises

I bought a 5" Bison on an Ebay blow-out sale & it is deadly accurate. I don't know if they make them anymore because I just see the conventional cast body & Bison is a spendy name here in NAm. But these vise styles are sufficiently rigid for this size mill & you gain more headroom for the same jaw width. There is a very similar version under the GS name in my neck of the woods although I have seen it under different labels. The good ones are made in Taiwan I believe so just watch out for similar looking knockoffs that may not be as good. Another advantage is it is more adaptable to hobby machine varying table T-slot layouts because hold-down uses a number of clamp blocks along the base slot. The Kurt style have the typical bolt lug so sometimes that puts you either in or out relative to where you would like to be. I feel they are just meant to be on bigger mills.

Check out these videos, 2 of my favorite YouTube machinists

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckknLkwx9Sw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckknLkwx9Sw</a>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5m-kA_Oq_4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5m-kA_Oq_4</a>

[Mike R]

I got a vise from these guys, nice quality, not quite as expensive as a Kurt. Its also more versatile than a standard angle-lock type for my CNC mill (no swivel base needed)
https://www.glacern.com/gpv_615
If you can wait (a half year!) they usually have sales around American thanksgiving (black Friday). 
Shipping will hurt as its UPS - they will quote you (no shipping pricing online).

Other vendors also carry a very similar vise (probably the same casting) - Shars is an example and a bit cheaper too:
http://www.shars.com/products/workholding/vise/6-660u-cnc-milling-machine-vise-0-0004-1
Good luck - in Canada we have a hard time getting things in cheap compared to our American neighbors - I can't imagine the burn you must feel every time you order something and the shipping is as much (or more) than the item.


Mike

[petertha]

I looked at that Glacern too. I bought a nice chuck from them & pretty sure its the good quality Taiwan? stuff that we see under GS label.

Again confirm the vise dimensions particularly in vertical sense if you have anything less than a Bridgeport style mill. Subtract drill chuck + drill, or boring head + tool (tapping head or end mill collet...etc) at maximum mill head extension or table lowered position. Net compare that to resultant work you can accommodate in vise jaws. If you add the rotary base casting underneath, less room still. That's why I went to the low profile style vise on my particular mill. Your mileage may vary.

[Jasonb]

I suppose it comes down to what accuracy you feel you need. I see that German Santool one has a max lift of 0.02mm, I tested three vices that I have to hand recently .

The Vertex that I have had for about 10years and have done all my engines on gave less lift that and has no feature in the jaw to pull work down.

The far eastern Versatile much like the basic Kurt that is now only made in the very big size gave one tenth the lift quoted in the link to the German site

Far eastern "precision" type vice could not measure any lift

So do you get much for paying 5 times as much apart from a feeling that you must produce better work as you have "better" tools?

This shows the lift of the work, no tapping down

[warrenmaker]

HMMM... much to contemplate. I did find the Bison reseller in Oz. $990 for the 125 mm. (5").

More than twice the price I was contemplating for the one from the first link I showed back at the start of this thread. I guess I am thinking if I buy a good one it will last me the rest of my engineering life.
 So 1000 bucks divided by 20 is only 50 dollars a year. Small price to pay for high accuracy....   

Thanks again for all your input guys.  Interesting to note Stephan highly recommends Precision engineering vice even for milling.

[Jo]

So do you get much for paying 5 times as much apart from a feeling that you must produce better work as you have "better" tools?

Think of it like drinking wine: You can get equally drunk drinking the under £5 bottle of plonk as the over £20 stuff - but one does not drink wine to get drunk 

Jo

[Firebird]

Hi

I bought mine from here

https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices/Precision-Tool-Vices-Type-2

Brilliant and very accurate. because of the way the jaw clamps it pulls tight and also pulls down so there is no jaw lift.

Cheers

Rich

[petertha]

I have a progressive set of the smaller offshore vises like the previously mentioned arceurotrade link. I think they are excellent value. I sometimes put them in within my main big vise at different orientations or on angle blocks or attached to rotary table. If I had a small mill I would have no qualms about buying a 'big' vise of this kind even if they seem to be more associated with grinders or other applications.

Of course its impossible to determine if Chinese vise from supplier A is better or worse than B. So best to go off someone with a good experience from a specific vendor & hope it remains consistent. Its impossible to judge by pictures alone when they all look similar. The Taiwan made ones seem to be quite good, a notch above what I'm about to describe.

Where mine seem to vary in quality is the clamping detente mechanism. Some are OK. Others..... 
For example [pics] the main block & jaws are hardened & ground to very accurate tolerances. Nice overall finish, jaw slides nicely, no slop. Good bang for buck so far. Then you look at the underside - the business end responsible for clamping & unfortunately what you deal with every time you tighten or loosen the jaws. The notches look like they were gnawed by a rat and the T-nut was hopelessly sloppy in the track & actually dropping free & rotating out of position unless the bolt turn play was just so. I Dremeled off the burrs, cleaned out the (heat treat oil?) mung & made a new properly dimension T-nut, meaning both the main boss & engaging end pins. Now its silky smooth & functions as it should. My bigger 4" version of this vise didn't have these issues & yet was purchased from the same importer. Strange.

[petertha]

I did find the Bison reseller in Oz. $990 for the 125 mm. (5"). More than twice the price I was contemplating for the one from the first link I showed

That's the situation here too, Bison = nutty prices. Same goes for their chucks. Nice tooling but not 2X nicer to justify 2X price. Once upon a time they were excellent value relative to big name brands. I don't know what happened if it was trade taxation, or middleman effect but they are spendy. If the GS vise is anything like other tooling I've acquired under that name, I think it would be pretty decent & its obviously modeled after the same size & mechanism concept.