Author Topic: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally  (Read 2763 times)

Offline gbritnell

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Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« on: April 14, 2018, 10:16:56 PM »
Gentlemen,
After many trails and tribulations the flathead engine is running. As the video states many changes were made along the way to first correct my design miscalculations and second to get all the components of and internal combustion engine correct, spark, fuel and compression.
I had the engine ready to go right after Christmas but didn't want to spend time in the cold garage trying to fine tune everything.
The last couple of days saw temperatures in the low 80's here in Ohio so I had no more excuses not to try and get the engine running.
Everything was hooked up, fuel ignition and wiring. I set the ignition timing to around 20 degrees advanced to get started. The fuel needle was just cracked so that I didn't load the plugs right off the bat.
A short spin of the drill while adjusting the carb needle had the engine running on it's own. While running I made adjustments to the distributor but found the timing window was very narrow. A little too much one way or the other would stall the engine.
I started the engine without coolant figuring that whatever changes would need to be made would only be complicated by draining coolant every time. When the engine seemed sorted out I then added coolant and found a few leaks, mainly from the hose clamps. The coolant was drained and the radiator removed so that I could modify the clamps to get a tighter squeeze on the hoses.
I would eventually like to go back to the dual carb setup but for now I'm thrilled to have it running after almost 2 years, from inception to life.
gbrtitnell
Talent unshared is talent wasted.

Online zeeprogrammer

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2018, 10:24:03 PM »
Stunning. That is a beautiful job.  :ThumbsUp:

I mean wow.
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
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Zee-Another Thread Trasher.

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2018, 10:26:16 PM »
Another beauty George. I had almost forgotten about this one. What a nice runner too after your tweaks!!

Bill

Offline gldavison

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2018, 10:39:31 PM »
Another beautiful engine. I knew you would  eventually get it sorted out.  :cartwheel:

Offline steamer

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2018, 10:39:56 PM »
Nicely done George!   I knew you'd sort that out eventually.

Dave
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Online Vixen

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2018, 10:50:15 PM »
Nice one George

Mike   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2018, 10:50:32 PM »
Very nice!

Dave

Offline jeff l

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2018, 10:57:19 PM »
Very nice ,your bringing this to NAMES right?

Offline gbritnell

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2018, 10:58:32 PM »
Thanks everyone,
Yup, it'll be displayed and running at NAMES.
gbritnell
Talent unshared is talent wasted.

Offline crueby

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2018, 11:06:03 PM »
Terrific!!!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:


And 80's in Ohio? You must have been the other side of the front, been 40's here in western NY, ice storm tonight!   :(

Online toolznthings

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2018, 01:29:08 AM »
Fantastic !! Look forward to seeing you at the show.
Will give you a call on Monday.

Brian
Thanks for the visit !
Brian

Offline 90LX_Notch

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2018, 02:46:38 AM »
Congratulations George.  It really is a cool engine.

-Bob
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Offline Art K

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2018, 03:48:52 AM »
George,
It's great to hear you got the flat head sorted out. It purrs like a kitten. I look forward to seeing it at NAMES.
Art

Offline vcutajar

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2018, 05:00:21 AM »
Congratulations George.  A beautiful runner. :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:

Vince

Offline Kim

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2018, 06:05:27 AM »
Wow, George! That is just really impressive!
Beautiful work!
Kim

Offline Roger B

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2018, 08:25:38 AM »
Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2:  :praise2:  Was there any one particular problem to be solved or just a number of small things? Persistence pays off  :wine1:
Best regards

Roger

Offline Zephyrin

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2018, 11:29:45 AM »
Magnificent engine and runner, amazing !
from the large to the tiny one, always great models.

Offline cwelkie

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2018, 01:44:04 PM »
Very nice George.  I'm glad you stayed with it so we could hear it running.
Another beautiful model by a master ...

Offline gbritnell

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2018, 01:57:23 PM »
Thanks everyone for the comments.
Roger, when I designed the engine I didn't actually take into account the volume of the combustion chamber, being as I have never built a flat head type engine. (hit and miss don't count) (Time line August of 2016) Usually the combustion chamber is just an extension of the bore diameter into t he head but with a flathead you have all the area going out over the valves.
When I first assembled the engine and was running it in on the lathe (without the heads on) I would put the heel of my hand over the cylinders and the compression/vacuum seemed fine but when I assembled the engine the compression seemed not existent. That's when I started looking into the combustion chamber volume. The first thing I did was to make domed pistons to try and get the compression pressure up. (Time line April of 2017) This then required new rings and pistons but I thought that would be easier than making new heads. When that didn't work as planned I made new heads, at least the combustion chamber side as the heads are made in two pieces to form the water jacket area inside. (Time line June of 2017) At that point I tried to start the engine but had no luck and the compression pressure when turning over by hand still didn't seem like it was where it should be. At that point I made the second set of lower heads. The engine would now start but I couldn't keep it going long enough to make any adjustments. It seemed like it wasn't making enough power to overcome the internal frictions.
All along it still seemed like compression was the issue so I pulled the whole engine apart and honed the cylinders for the third time. (Time line November of 2017) At this point you could say I was drawing a blank. All of the engines I have built over the years have been made with the same processes, bore and hone cylinders, make rings by the Trimble method, fit rings, break engine in by running in lathe for a few hours, assemble and run.
After the last honing I made new pistons and rings to fit the bores. From the initial build bore to the last honing the diameter only changed by .003 but that required new pistons and rings each time.
I assemble the engine and ran it in on the lathe. To make sure that the rings were seated or as close as possible before reassembling I spun the engine over in the lathe for almost 10 hours. I know it seems excessive but at this point I wasn't taking an more chances. The engine was assembled (Time line late December of 2017) and because it was cold in the garage over the winter the engine sat until now. In turning the engine over by hand it felt like it had very good compression so I was optimistic about the outcome. At this point let me add that with every disassembly I would recheck all the valves for proper sealing which on this engine is quite a job.
That brings us to the present day. On April 12th everything was hooked up and the engine started. My birthday is tomorrow, the 16th, so maybe this is a birthday present to myself.
gbritnell
Talent unshared is talent wasted.

Offline steamer

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2018, 02:49:35 PM »
I should think so!

Happy Birthday George!


Dave
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Damned ijjit!

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2018, 02:58:06 PM »
Many happy returns George...both for the birthday and successful engines!! :drinking-41:

Bill

Offline 90LX_Notch

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2018, 03:15:47 PM »
A very Happy Birthday wish to you George.

-Bob
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Offline ColH

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2018, 02:42:31 AM »
Happy Birthday and well done on another of your fantastic engines.  I thought I had missed something when you had not posted video of the flathead running but just had to wait.

Again well done and thanks for sharing your work with all of us.

Col
ColH

Offline michelko

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2018, 06:27:19 AM »
Congrats on the engine and also your birthday :cheers:

We too will celebrate the 10th birthday of our first son today.

Do you have oil control rings on the engine? If yes, how are they made?
Having big trouble with the bugatti pumping oil.

Cheers  Michael

Offline mikemill

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2018, 09:46:20 AM »
Well done George, itís a warm feeling of satisfaction when an engine fire up for the first time, as George says even the most experienced model engineers struggle to set up IC engines.
I am in the same boat with my Triumph Twin!!!


Mike

Offline Doc

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2018, 02:07:50 PM »
Hope you have a Great Birthday George!!

Offline gbritnell

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2018, 06:45:15 PM »
Thanks everyone for the gracious replies and the Birthday wishes.
Doc, I saw your post on Youtube and whenever you would like to make the Moon gas pedal let me know and I'll send you the information.
Hi Michael,
On this particular engine I am just using compression rings (three). I have made oil control rings in the past but in all honesty I don't know if the results are worth all the time it takes to make them.
The rings in this engine are .032 wide and .040 thick. For an oil ring I would probably make it .050 wide with a .030 groove in the center. Usually I drill the oil drain back holes around the ring but leave an undrilled area exactly opposite the break in the ring. This is also done after heat treating. I find this helps prevent the rings from breaking when installing them.
gbritnell
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 06:58:24 PM by gbritnell »
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Offline kvom

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2018, 07:37:13 PM »
I'll echo everyone else in congratulations on a fine runner, and I'll see it next weekend in action.

Offline bent

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2018, 05:42:09 PM »
Beautiful work, and a nice payoff for your persistence.  :cheers:

Offline jeff l

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2018, 12:22:15 AM »
Happy Belated Birthday George.

Offline metalmad

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2018, 10:00:50 AM »
Happy Birthday George
Your an inspiration, Congrats on the runner!
Metalmad
A little bit every day, sometimes the same little bit

Offline Corrad

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2018, 12:05:53 PM »
Beautifully build. Congratulations!

Offline gbritnell

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2018, 08:43:02 PM »
Gentlemen,
I'd like to post an update on the flathead engine.
Having finally sorted out the engine to the point where it runs well I wanted to go back to the original designed dual carb setup. The manifold looks like a dual plane type but is actually a single plane (all the cylinders get fed from the same main runner). When I designed and machined the dual carb manifold I made it so the front four cylinders would run on the front carb and the rear four on the back carb. An island of metal was left in the main runner to divide the two sections. Individual patches were made and fitted to both halves.
I experimented with the single carb setup that I currently have installed to adjust the air bleed hole size so that the engine would idle and accelerate without having to adjust the main needle valve. Currently I have to richen the needle ever so slightly to get the engine to rev up. When going back to idle I needed to close the needle to it's original position because the engine would go rich and start spitting gas from the exhaust.
I removed the carb multiple times and kept drilling the air bleed hole each time in one size drill increments. While setting up to drill I did the other carb at the same time. I finally got to the point where the engine would idle and accelerate without adjustment so I figured it was time to go back to the dual carb setup. I removed the carb and the single carb adapter that I had made and installed both carbs. I had to remove the needle valve from each carb and swap them carb for carb. The reason for this is because the original fuel configuration had the fuel spigots pointing toward each other to share a common fuel line. Ok so you ask why not just use the front carb with the spigot facing the rear for the single carb setup? Well that carb didn't have the idle adjustment lever machined onto the throttle barrel and they were made and fitted to each carb.
So now I have everything assembled, carbs, fuel lines and linkage, it's time to start the engine. I started with the needle valves close and as I cranked the engine over I slowly opened one carb until the engine responded. I continued to crank the engine and opened the second carb needle valve until I could see that all four cylinders were operating. I adjusted the idle screw to where the engine would keep running and proceeded to adjust each needle valve to where the engine seemed to be running clean. Once the engine had a little heat in it I tried opening the throttle but the engine died.
I then opened the needles a touch and cranked the engine over again. It fired up and would rev up but the idle was way to rich. I thought I had this part sorted out when I was experimenting with the single carb but apparently going to the dual carbs presented a new set of parameters.
I must have played with the engine for almost three hours, giving it time to cool a little between runs but finally got frustrated and called it a day.
The next day I tried to decide what my options were. I really liked the original dual carb setup but without more experimentation I knew it wasn't going to work properly. I could take the manifold off and cut the island out so that one carb could be used and the other would be blocked off with a gasket but then I couldn't go back to the true dual carb manifold without major work.
For the time being I decided to make a whole new single carb manifold and save the original for winter experimentation.
I have never built an engine with dual carbs so this was a first and I learned some new lessons. As with most engines the building is the easy part, if you want to call it easy, but getting them to run as intended is sometimes as much work as building.
Attached are some pictures of the new single carb manifold fresh from machining. Now I have the better part of two days smoothing all the steps off and rounding all the corners.
Talent unshared is talent wasted.

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2018, 09:18:33 PM »
George, with your tenacity, I have no doubt that you will get it sorted out with the single carb for now and eventually the dual carbs as well. That new manifold is quite complex but sure looks good.

Bill

Offline 90LX_Notch

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2018, 11:37:50 PM »
A very inspirational piece of machining George.

-Bob
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Offline gbritnell

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2018, 02:04:10 AM »
The intake manifold is burred, filed and polished. Now I have to take the engine apart and mount it. At least it will look better than the dual carb manifold with only one carb.
gbritnell
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Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2018, 02:18:59 AM »
Beautiful George. All the more impressive in it's finished state!!!

Bill

Offline Roger B

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2018, 11:00:05 AM »
In the full size world carbs tend to run richer under pulsed flow but I wouldn't have thought that the difference between 4 and 8 cylinder would be that great  :headscratch: Twin carbs on a four cylinder engine usually have a small bore balance pipe between the two manifold halves to improve idling.
Best regards

Roger

Offline steamer

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Re: Fordillac V-8 engine running, finally
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2018, 12:20:07 PM »
Thanks for sharing that George!   A flat 12 is sounding a bit scary   :zap:


Dave
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Damned ijjit!