Author Topic: Moving Machine Tools  (Read 837 times)

Online Hugh Currin

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Moving Machine Tools
« on: November 16, 2017, 11:34:10 PM »
I thought all you would get a kick out of this move. You can consider this when you move some equipment into or out of a basement. My shop is on the lower floor of a two car, two story garage. The lower floor is under grade like a basement. When I put my machines into it I decided to lower them through the floor rather than building a driveway and new large door. As we're planning a move I needed to take the tools out of the existing shop. When I put them in I designed and built a hoist. Here is the saga of putting the hoist back up and moving the machines.

First the flooring is unscrewed and removed.


Then the joists, which were bolted into place, were removed leaving a large hole in the floor. The hole is about 8' x 5'.


Two 6x6 columns about 18' long are used. The bottom is capped with a 1 hole in the center. This fits over a pin placed into a hole in the concrete. Some half way up they are bolted to a joist or through the concrete wall.


An I-beam is hoisted to the top of the columns. Once in place it is clamped in place with hold down pieces on each side.



Finally a lifting strap is wound around the I-beam and a 1 ton chain hoist is hung.


Finally, with the hoist in place the lathe was lifted.


Once high enough 6x6 beams are slid under the lathe. It's lowered onto these with some rolling pipes between (pipes not in this pic). Say hi to my wife Denise who is keeping the lathe from spinning.


The forklift was used as an anchor point for a tie down strap to pull the lathe, on rolling pipes, out of the garage enough to get forks on it.


Finally the lifting straps were used with the fork lift to move the lathe to a trailer.


Took the lathe to storage and then back for the knee mill. (Say hi to neighbor Justin who helped.)


So the big pieces, lathe and mill, were moved without incident. Smaller pieces (bandsaws, welder, etc) were likewise moved. Safely to storage.

Sounds so simple. But it took me three days to install the hoist, one day to move, and two days to take down the hoist. Most of the time was in carefully re-setting block and tackle, straps, etc. But is was a success.

Thanks for looking in.

Hugh

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2017, 11:45:46 PM »
Interesting process Hugh, thanks for sharing. You are going to hang onto the machinery for a while in case you decide to settle down somewhere?

Dave

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 12:06:31 AM »
Interesting process Hugh, thanks for sharing. You are going to hang onto the machinery for a while in case you decide to settle down somewhere?

Dave

Dave: We will settle down again, probably in Prescott. Might be a year or could be five. Whether to store the machines or sell them and buy new later is the question. Please see next post and comment.

Thanks for looking in.

Hugh

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 12:06:47 AM »
Now I think I'll ask for some opinions. The question is whether to move my equipment to Arizona or sell it and get new equipment. The equipment under consideration are the lathe and mill as shown above.

The lathe is larger than I need being a 14" gap bed. I bought it new in the mid '80s so has very low hours. It's a Goodway from Taiwan. I really like it, but it is big. If I keep it I'll have to make hoist for changing chucks, getting old enough this is a problem. If I sold it I'd get a smaller lathe, maybe around 10". A Grizzly G0752 seems a popular lathe in the right size range. But, the G0752 is about 1/3 the cost and 20% the weight of my 14" lathe. I wonder if it would be a poor substitute? Does anyone here have experience on a small 10" lathe and a 14" size? I'd sure appreciate a comparison on more than just size capacity.

The mill is a Bridgeport copy, SuperMax, also from Taiwan. I've converted it to CNC with ball screws on all three axes. It was used when I got it but it's given me good service. I have no complaints with its accuracy or capabilities though the spindle Z axis is a little short. The knee mill makes up for capacity but requires re-setting tools. If I sold it I'd likely pick up a Tormach, 1100 or 770 depending on which fits best in the new space. They have a smaller working envelope, but I can remember only once I've run out of table space on the SuperMax. I had a Tormach demo in Wisconsin and was impressed. The Tormach 1100 is about half the weight (mass) of the knee mill, but has fewer joints. Again same question, would a Tormach be a poor substitute for the SuperMax?

The cost is going to be similar either way. A little more tooling to acquire with new machines, but still the cost would be close.

My needs are about model engine size parts. Anticipated new shop space is a one car garage 10'x20'. I think the existing equipment would fit, but it would be tight. Sure don't want to go though another move like the one above, but any moves in the future will be on flat ground!

Please send my opinions. Thank you in advance.

Hugh

Offline crueby

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 12:17:52 AM »
Wow! That is some operation! 

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 12:46:58 AM »
Hugh, you know as well as I do that if you go to a smaller lathe, you're likely to need to make larger parts. Think fly wheels. The same with the mill. Think motor frames/bases.

I know what you're up against but I would hold on to the bigger equipment until you have demonstrated to yourself that you can use smaller equipment without penalty.

Hold 'em as long as you can!!

Pete
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Offline toolznthings

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2017, 01:18:47 AM »
Hi,
I think you will be disappointed in the quality of some of the smaller lathes and I would tend to try and hang onto the lathe.Big change going backward from bigger to smaller. I think you have more flexibility on finding a suitable mill.

Brian in Ohio

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2017, 01:27:17 AM »
Wow! That is some operation!

And scary!

Thanks.

Hugh

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 01:37:44 AM »
Hugh, you know as well as I do that if you go to a smaller lathe, you're likely to need to make larger parts. Think fly wheels. The same with the mill. Think motor frames/bases.

I know what you're up against but I would hold on to the bigger equipment until you have demonstrated to yourself that you can use smaller equipment without penalty.

Hold 'em as long as you can!!

Pete

Pete: Thanks. I think I'll try some smaller equipment soon. The Traveling Sherline Show is a LOT smaller. Did you notice the micrometers in that thread?

I know what you are saying. But I'm more worried about mass, stability and quality than size. Since I'm not doing work for $ I can pick my models to fit the machines. But you're right, as soon as I downsized.....

Thanks.

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 01:43:42 AM »
Hi,
I think you will be disappointed in the quality of some of the smaller lathes and I would tend to try and hang onto the lathe.Big change going backward from bigger to smaller. I think you have more flexibility on finding a suitable mill.

Brian in Ohio

Brian: Thanks. Just the kind of feedback I need. I've looked around and haven't found a small quality lathe. Might find a nice machining center but not a manual lathe. It'll be interesting what everyone suggests. Thanks for your input.

Hugh

Online Flyboy Jim

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2017, 03:02:17 AM »
This is going to be a fun process to watch, Hugh.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. I think it's a lot harder to go from larger to smaller, than it is from smaller to larger. For me, with my Sherlines, going to a 10" lathe would be a huge jump. One thing you might analyze is if you could of done the projects, you've done in the past, with smaller machines like the Grizzly you mentioned. Also, what projects you might want to do in the future.

You're in a great position, in that you have your big machines stored and your Sherlines ready to work with. You might be surprised and find out that they give you the satisfaction and enjoyment of machining stuff without having to use a hoist to change chucks! I guess it's all about what your mission is.

Jim

PS: It's too bad that more folks don't list what they're using for a lathe and mill when doing build threads. Might make these sorts of decisions easier.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 03:06:42 AM by Flyboy Jim »
Sherline 4400 Lathe
Sherline 5400 Mill

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2017, 03:39:42 AM »

Jim

PS: It's too bad that more folks don't list what they're using for a lathe and mill when doing build threads. Might make these sorts of decisions easier.

Good idea Jim!

Pete
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SB 10K lathe, Benchmaster mill. And stuff.

Offline gerritv

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2017, 03:40:39 AM »
I build things within the work envelope provided by my tools. I have a King KC1022ML, essentially a Grizzly G0602. (The G0752 is its variable speed sibling). Prior I had a Taig, which I got a lot of use out of.
But now I would not want to go back from the 1022.  My criteria when looking for a machine was 1" through the spindle.

I have a no-idea-what-brand small horizontal mill, again I work within its envelope. Anything too large I either get creative or I don't start building it.

With regard to selling or not, I would consider what you are about to pay for storage. If you can keep that going for however long you are on-the-road, then keep your existing machines. It is unlikely that anything you buy to replace them will be of the same quality or condition (if used). E.g. 2 years ago when I was loooking for my lathe there was lots of choice in 9" SB's, 1022's, 1236's erc . Now almost nothing on the usual places, such as Kijiji.ca. Plus those machines are in your finger tips, anything else will be a learning curve which at our time of life is best spent using what we already know :-)

If during your travels you find that you totally enjoy the Sherline sized projects, then you can always make the decision to sell existing stuff.

Gerrit
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Offline jadge

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2017, 01:14:20 PM »
Again same question, would a Tormach be a poor substitute for the SuperMax?

I have a manual varispeed head Bridgeport (by Adcock and Shipley) and a Tormach PCNC1100, so the comparison isn't CNC versus CNC, but below is a version of something I wrote on another forum a while back:

The comparison between the Bridgeport and Tormach is an interesting one, on several levels. They both use an R8 taper and are the same nominal spindle power, 1.5hp. The Tormach is about half the weight of the Bridgeport at 500kg.

The drives are different. My Bridgeport has two ranges ( one backgeared) and within each range uses a varispeed pulley system. So ignoring losses full power is available across the speed range. The Tormach has two belt driven ranges and within each range the motor is driven by a VFD. So below base speed (equal to 60Hz) the available power is reduced. The Tormach speed range is 100-5100rpm, while the Bridgeport is 50-3750rpm. I rarely run the Bridgeport above 3000rpm as the head is pretty noisy, whereas the Tormach is dominated by cutting noise, even at maximum rpm. While the Bridgeport is happy running large (>1" cutters and drills at a few hundred rpm the Tormach isn't. But of course with CNC you don't need to run large drills, you just interpolate the hole to any size you want. Although the Tormach requires a little more thought about available power in practical terms there is little difference.

In terms of axes, the Tormach has about half the travel in X, two thirds in Y and is slightly bigger in Z.

With regards to rigidity the jury is out. Compared to many industrial milling machines the Bridgeport isn't particularly rigid, although it is flexible (in at least two senses). I'd say that the Tormach rigidity is on a par with respect to the table movements. The spindle on the Tormach might be a little more rigid as there is no tilt function, although the column is smaller than the Bridgeport.

I tend to use slightly different techniques on each mill. For CNC it's very much run at high rpm and high feedrates with small (<10mm) cutters. Whereas the Bridgeport has the capability to run larger cutters at slow speeds. The Tormach has a sort of quick change capability, and I use the same system on the Bridgeport a lot of the time. So the experience of using the Tormach has modified, to some extent, the way I use the Bridgeport.

When I was purchasing the Tormach my hope was that it would be roughly equal capability to the Bridgeport in terms of metal removal. I think that this has proved to be roughly correct.

Which mill I use depends mostly on ease of setup, time to program and the complexity of the operation rather than basic machine capabilities.

Although I have a rotary table for the Bridgeport it doesn't have the same scope for complex parts as using the 4th axis on the Tormach. Since this was written I have added a high speed (24000rpm) spindle to the Tormach which greatly helps with small (<1mm) cutters, at the expense of being able to use tool tables.

Andrew

Offline mcostello

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2017, 02:25:37 PM »
I am glad that You mentioned that the Wife helped You out. I showed the pictures to My Wife and She thought surely You must not be married. ;) My Wife helps with moves but My garage is underneath the house with garage door access. Carry on, good job.

Offline Kim

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2017, 09:19:53 PM »
That is one impressive moving job.  And the fact that you did it successfully with no incidents shows that you did a pretty good job on planning it!

Not much advice on the machine front.  Personally, I'd be disappointed giving up my 14" Grizzly lathe (G0709) back to my Taig exclusively.  I did some work on the Taig recently and remembered all the 'small lathe' problems I used to have.  Mainly rigidity, lack of power, etc.  And how LONG it takes to remove 1/4" of steel on that little lathe.  I loved my Taig, but I know it would be hard to go back.  I do almost everything on the big lathe, even stuff that would work on the Taig.  Of course, I have a DRO on the Grizzly which is a big advantage too.

Best of luck to you,
Kim

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2017, 02:45:32 PM »
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I think it's a lot harder to go from larger to smaller, than it is from smaller to larger. For me, with my Sherlines, going to a 10" lathe would be a huge jump. One thing you might analyze is if you could of done the projects, you've done in the past, with smaller machines like the Grizzly you mentioned. Also, what projects you might want to do in the future.

You're in a great position, in that you have your big machines stored and your Sherlines ready to work with. You might be surprised and find out that they give you the satisfaction and enjoyment of machining stuff without having to use a hoist to change chucks! I guess it's all about what your mission is.

Jim

Jim: Looking back, only a few tasks couldn't be done on a 10" lathe and/or Tormach 1100. I'd not be penalized by the work envelopes. But I worry rigidity and quality could be sacrificed.

I've used the Sherlines enough to know they aren't a good substitute. They are quality machines but the size, rigidity and power are serious compromises. A lot better than nothing and for traveling it's the only game in town. They will be a lot of fun, but as a substitute for larger machines, not a great trade off.

Thanks.

Hugh

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2017, 03:04:15 PM »
I build things within the work envelope provided by my tools. I have a King KC1022ML, essentially a Grizzly G0602. (The G0752 is its variable speed sibling). Prior I had a Taig, which I got a lot of use out of. But now I would not want to go back from the 1022.  My criteria when looking for a machine was 1" through the spindle.
Gerrit: The biggest restrictions I've found on my 14" lathe is the spindle bore (and it's 1 5/8"  :o) and rpm.
Quote
With regard to selling or not, I would consider what you are about to pay for storage. If you can keep that going for however long you are on-the-road, then keep your existing machines. It is unlikely that anything you buy to replace them will be of the same quality or condition (if used). E.g. 2 years ago when I was loooking for my lathe there was lots of choice in 9" SB's, 1022's, 1236's erc . Now almost nothing on the usual places, such as Kijiji.ca. Plus those machines are in your finger tips, anything else will be a learning curve which at our time of life is best spent using what we already know :-)
Storage wouldn't be too much of a problem. We're have most of our belongings in storage as well as a good bit of my shop anyway. Good points, finding replacement used equipment with the same low hours would be impossible. Something to be said for known quantities, as he packs up everything and hits the road for the foreseeable future.
Quote
If during your travels you find that you totally enjoy the Sherline sized projects, then you can always make the decision to sell existing stuff.
I've used the Sherlines enough to know they are a poor substitute. Will be great for travel and of good quality but lacking rigidity, power and envelope.

Thanks for the feedback, very helpful.

Hugh

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2017, 03:21:36 PM »
I have a manual varispeed head Bridgeport (by Adcock and Shipley) and a Tormach PCNC1100, so the comparison isn't CNC versus CNC, but below is a version of something I wrote on another forum a while back:
.....................

Although I have a rotary table for the Bridgeport it doesn't have the same scope for complex parts as using the 4th axis on the Tormach. Since this was written I have added a high speed (24000rpm) spindle to the Tormach which greatly helps with small (<1mm) cutters, at the expense of being able to use tool tables.

Andrew

Andrew: Thank you for the response, very helpful. My experience with my SuperMax knee mill mirrors yours. It has a belt driven head with two ranges. My phase converter is a VERY noisy 20HP motor so I don't really know how noisy the mill (or lathe) are. If I keep them I'll add a VFD mainly for a quieter three phase conversion. It sounds like a pretty even trade between the knee mill and Tormach.

If I keep the SuperMax I'll probably make a fourth axis and high speed spindle. These have been on the wish list for some time.

Thanks again.

Hugh

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2017, 03:25:03 PM »
I am glad that You mentioned that the Wife helped You out. I showed the pictures to My Wife and She thought surely You must not be married. ;) My Wife helps with moves but My garage is underneath the house with garage door access. Carry on, good job.
Yep. I'd be lost without her, and I'm forever grateful she puts up with me. The shop is one of those things she puts up with.

Thanks.

Hugh

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2017, 03:33:32 PM »
That is one impressive moving job.  And the fact that you did it successfully with no incidents shows that you did a pretty good job on planning it!
Kim: It was much easier moving equipment out than in. Moving in required design and build of the hoist. Many checks of the calculations and a test lift with a large block of concrete. The move out overall went very smoothly with no incidents. A lot of thinking and re-setting rigging but no-one hurt and no damage to equipment. Life is great.
Quote
Not much advice on the machine front.  Personally, I'd be disappointed giving up my 14" Grizzly lathe (G0709) back to my Taig exclusively.  I did some work on the Taig recently and remembered all the 'small lathe' problems I used to have.  Mainly rigidity, lack of power, etc.  And how LONG it takes to remove 1/4" of steel on that little lathe.  I loved my Taig, but I know it would be hard to go back.  I do almost everything on the big lathe, even stuff that would work on the Taig.  Of course, I have a DRO on the Grizzly which is a big advantage too.
Yes. I'd not be satisfied with the Sherlines as permanent replacements. They should be good, and the only possibility, for traveling. I anticipate learning a great deal using them. But as a permanent replacement, not ideal. The Sherlines are CNC which is helpful.

Thanks.

Hugh

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2017, 01:32:14 AM »
Some good feedback, thank you. No-one thought it a great idea to downsize!

The consensus is, a smaller lathe in the 10" range would be a poor substitute for my 14". A little too light and the quality of new 10" range lathes is lacking. I've seen a few seemingly nice lathes in the 12" range, but this doesn't save me much room. The cost of storage isn't overwhelming, we'll already be storing a good bit of stuff, so I'll hold onto the Goodway 14". This at least till I know what size the new shop will be. It's a very nice lathe of known good quality.

The Tormach 1100 looks to be an even trade with my converted knee mill. Similar capabilities but also similar floor space. The capacity of the Tormach 770 is a little small. So I'll also keep my SuperMax knee mill. If I'm moving the lathe then also moving the mill won't be twice the trouble or expense.

In our storage unit I've started a trial layout of a 10'x20' shop. This is a one car garage and about the smallest I'd go for in Arizona. So far it looks doable though tight. May need to capture some additional room for stock storage and spill over.

Thank you for your feedback and help.

Hugh

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2017, 02:12:09 AM »
Hugh

Would the storage be in Arizona or Oregon? If Oregon I would be concerned about rust.
If you can swing it, I agree with the others about hanging on to your big tools for a while until you get settled.

Dave

Online Flyboy Jim

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2017, 03:11:54 AM »
This has been a really interesting thread. My take-away from it is that it's much easier to go from smaller to bigger, than to go from bigger to smaller.  :shrug: For example: If I was to go to a 10" lathe and comparable mill, from my present Sherline lathe and mill, I'd feel like I'd made a huge jump in capability.

I just recently joined our local Model Engineering Club and I'm really looking forward to visiting other shops to see what equipment folks are using to do what we do.

Jim
Sherline 4400 Lathe
Sherline 5400 Mill

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2017, 03:53:57 AM »

Would the storage be in Arizona or Oregon? If Oregon I would be concerned about rust.
If you can swing it, I agree with the others about hanging on to your big tools for a while until you get settled.

Dave

Dave: Storage will be in Oregon. But in Klamath Falls which is high desert, similar to Boise. I don't think rust will be a problem.

Thanks.

Hugh

Online Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2017, 04:04:39 AM »
This has been a really interesting thread. My take-away from it is that it's much easier to go from smaller to bigger, than to go from bigger to smaller.  :shrug: For example: If I was to go to a 10" lathe and comparable mill, from my present Sherline lathe and mill, I'd feel like I'd made a huge jump in capability.

I just recently joined our local Model Engineering Club and I'm really looking forward to visiting other shops to see what equipment folks are using to do what we do.

Jim

Jim: Any size machines are far superior to no machines! If I were starting over I'd go a little smaller, but not too much smaller. Depends a lot on shop space. Traveling with the Sherlines will be a learning process. I expect to pickup some added skills using these.

It would be nice to have a Machining Club within reach. But from here it's a days drive. Sure glad for MEM and similar forums or there would be no chance to interact with mentors.

Thanks.

Hugh

Offline jadge

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2017, 10:47:29 AM »
My phase converter is a VERY noisy 20HP motor so I don't really know how noisy the mill (or lathe) are.

I'm running my Bridgeport on a proper 415V 3-phase supply, so I know that the noise is coming from the machine. I suspect it's a combination of noise from the varispeed belt and possibly the plastic "bearings" in the spindle being worn. I've already partially dismantled the head twice to change broken drive belts; I'm not about to change the plastic parts until absolutely necessary.  :)

Andrew


Offline Jo

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2017, 10:54:47 AM »
My phase converter is a VERY noisy 20HP motor so I don't really know how noisy the mill (or lathe) are.

I'm running my Bridgeport on a proper 415V 3-phase supply, so I know that the noise is coming from the machine.

I have a Rotary converter that is noisier than any of my industrial machines but having said that it is not as noisy as Prazimat mill or Lathe  :hellno: The radio drowns the rotary converter out  :)

Jo
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