Author Topic: Moving Machine Tools  (Read 3466 times)

Offline Hugh Currin

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Moving Machine Tools
« on: November 16, 2017, 11:34:10 PM »
I thought all you would get a kick out of this move. You can consider this when you move some equipment into or out of a basement. My shop is on the lower floor of a two car, two story garage. The lower floor is under grade like a basement. When I put my machines into it I decided to lower them through the floor rather than building a driveway and new large door. As we're planning a move I needed to take the tools out of the existing shop. When I put them in I designed and built a hoist. Here is the saga of putting the hoist back up and moving the machines.

First the flooring is unscrewed and removed.


Then the joists, which were bolted into place, were removed leaving a large hole in the floor. The hole is about 8' x 5'.


Two 6x6 columns about 18' long are used. The bottom is capped with a 1 hole in the center. This fits over a pin placed into a hole in the concrete. Some half way up they are bolted to a joist or through the concrete wall.


An I-beam is hoisted to the top of the columns. Once in place it is clamped in place with hold down pieces on each side.



Finally a lifting strap is wound around the I-beam and a 1 ton chain hoist is hung.


Finally, with the hoist in place the lathe was lifted.


Once high enough 6x6 beams are slid under the lathe. It's lowered onto these with some rolling pipes between (pipes not in this pic). Say hi to my wife Denise who is keeping the lathe from spinning.


The forklift was used as an anchor point for a tie down strap to pull the lathe, on rolling pipes, out of the garage enough to get forks on it.


Finally the lifting straps were used with the fork lift to move the lathe to a trailer.


Took the lathe to storage and then back for the knee mill. (Say hi to neighbor Justin who helped.)


So the big pieces, lathe and mill, were moved without incident. Smaller pieces (bandsaws, welder, etc) were likewise moved. Safely to storage.

Sounds so simple. But it took me three days to install the hoist, one day to move, and two days to take down the hoist. Most of the time was in carefully re-setting block and tackle, straps, etc. But is was a success.

Thanks for looking in.

Hugh
Hugh

Online Dave Otto

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2017, 11:45:46 PM »
Interesting process Hugh, thanks for sharing. You are going to hang onto the machinery for a while in case you decide to settle down somewhere?

Dave

Offline Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 12:06:31 AM »
Interesting process Hugh, thanks for sharing. You are going to hang onto the machinery for a while in case you decide to settle down somewhere?

Dave

Dave: We will settle down again, probably in Prescott. Might be a year or could be five. Whether to store the machines or sell them and buy new later is the question. Please see next post and comment.

Thanks for looking in.

Hugh
Hugh

Offline Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 12:06:47 AM »
Now I think I'll ask for some opinions. The question is whether to move my equipment to Arizona or sell it and get new equipment. The equipment under consideration are the lathe and mill as shown above.

The lathe is larger than I need being a 14" gap bed. I bought it new in the mid '80s so has very low hours. It's a Goodway from Taiwan. I really like it, but it is big. If I keep it I'll have to make hoist for changing chucks, getting old enough this is a problem. If I sold it I'd get a smaller lathe, maybe around 10". A Grizzly G0752 seems a popular lathe in the right size range. But, the G0752 is about 1/3 the cost and 20% the weight of my 14" lathe. I wonder if it would be a poor substitute? Does anyone here have experience on a small 10" lathe and a 14" size? I'd sure appreciate a comparison on more than just size capacity.

The mill is a Bridgeport copy, SuperMax, also from Taiwan. I've converted it to CNC with ball screws on all three axes. It was used when I got it but it's given me good service. I have no complaints with its accuracy or capabilities though the spindle Z axis is a little short. The knee mill makes up for capacity but requires re-setting tools. If I sold it I'd likely pick up a Tormach, 1100 or 770 depending on which fits best in the new space. They have a smaller working envelope, but I can remember only once I've run out of table space on the SuperMax. I had a Tormach demo in Wisconsin and was impressed. The Tormach 1100 is about half the weight (mass) of the knee mill, but has fewer joints. Again same question, would a Tormach be a poor substitute for the SuperMax?

The cost is going to be similar either way. A little more tooling to acquire with new machines, but still the cost would be close.

My needs are about model engine size parts. Anticipated new shop space is a one car garage 10'x20'. I think the existing equipment would fit, but it would be tight. Sure don't want to go though another move like the one above, but any moves in the future will be on flat ground!

Please send my opinions. Thank you in advance.

Hugh
Hugh

Online crueby

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 12:17:52 AM »
Wow! That is some operation! 

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 12:46:58 AM »
Hugh, you know as well as I do that if you go to a smaller lathe, you're likely to need to make larger parts. Think fly wheels. The same with the mill. Think motor frames/bases.

I know what you're up against but I would hold on to the bigger equipment until you have demonstrated to yourself that you can use smaller equipment without penalty.

Hold 'em as long as you can!!

Pete
Craftsman, Tinkerer, Curious Person.
Retired, finally!
SB 10K lathe, Benchmaster mill. And stuff.

Offline toolznthings

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2017, 01:18:47 AM »
Hi,
I think you will be disappointed in the quality of some of the smaller lathes and I would tend to try and hang onto the lathe.Big change going backward from bigger to smaller. I think you have more flexibility on finding a suitable mill.

Brian in Ohio
Thanks for the visit !
Brian

Offline Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2017, 01:27:17 AM »
Wow! That is some operation!

And scary!

Thanks.

Hugh
Hugh

Offline Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 01:37:44 AM »
Hugh, you know as well as I do that if you go to a smaller lathe, you're likely to need to make larger parts. Think fly wheels. The same with the mill. Think motor frames/bases.

I know what you're up against but I would hold on to the bigger equipment until you have demonstrated to yourself that you can use smaller equipment without penalty.

Hold 'em as long as you can!!

Pete

Pete: Thanks. I think I'll try some smaller equipment soon. The Traveling Sherline Show is a LOT smaller. Did you notice the micrometers in that thread?

I know what you are saying. But I'm more worried about mass, stability and quality than size. Since I'm not doing work for $ I can pick my models to fit the machines. But you're right, as soon as I downsized.....

Thanks.
Hugh

Offline Hugh Currin

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 01:43:42 AM »
Hi,
I think you will be disappointed in the quality of some of the smaller lathes and I would tend to try and hang onto the lathe.Big change going backward from bigger to smaller. I think you have more flexibility on finding a suitable mill.

Brian in Ohio

Brian: Thanks. Just the kind of feedback I need. I've looked around and haven't found a small quality lathe. Might find a nice machining center but not a manual lathe. It'll be interesting what everyone suggests. Thanks for your input.

Hugh
Hugh

Offline Flyboy Jim

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2017, 03:02:17 AM »
This is going to be a fun process to watch, Hugh.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. I think it's a lot harder to go from larger to smaller, than it is from smaller to larger. For me, with my Sherlines, going to a 10" lathe would be a huge jump. One thing you might analyze is if you could of done the projects, you've done in the past, with smaller machines like the Grizzly you mentioned. Also, what projects you might want to do in the future.

You're in a great position, in that you have your big machines stored and your Sherlines ready to work with. You might be surprised and find out that they give you the satisfaction and enjoyment of machining stuff without having to use a hoist to change chucks! I guess it's all about what your mission is.

Jim

PS: It's too bad that more folks don't list what they're using for a lathe and mill when doing build threads. Might make these sorts of decisions easier.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 03:06:42 AM by Flyboy Jim »
Sherline 4400 Lathe
Sherline 5400 Mill
"You can do small things on big machines, but you can do small things on small machines".

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2017, 03:39:42 AM »

Jim

PS: It's too bad that more folks don't list what they're using for a lathe and mill when doing build threads. Might make these sorts of decisions easier.

Good idea Jim!

Pete
Craftsman, Tinkerer, Curious Person.
Retired, finally!
SB 10K lathe, Benchmaster mill. And stuff.

Offline gerritv

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2017, 03:40:39 AM »
I build things within the work envelope provided by my tools. I have a King KC1022ML, essentially a Grizzly G0602. (The G0752 is its variable speed sibling). Prior I had a Taig, which I got a lot of use out of.
But now I would not want to go back from the 1022.  My criteria when looking for a machine was 1" through the spindle.

I have a no-idea-what-brand small horizontal mill, again I work within its envelope. Anything too large I either get creative or I don't start building it.

With regard to selling or not, I would consider what you are about to pay for storage. If you can keep that going for however long you are on-the-road, then keep your existing machines. It is unlikely that anything you buy to replace them will be of the same quality or condition (if used). E.g. 2 years ago when I was loooking for my lathe there was lots of choice in 9" SB's, 1022's, 1236's erc . Now almost nothing on the usual places, such as Kijiji.ca. Plus those machines are in your finger tips, anything else will be a learning curve which at our time of life is best spent using what we already know :-)

If during your travels you find that you totally enjoy the Sherline sized projects, then you can always make the decision to sell existing stuff.

Gerrit
Don't confuse activity with progress

Offline jadge

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2017, 01:14:20 PM »
Again same question, would a Tormach be a poor substitute for the SuperMax?

I have a manual varispeed head Bridgeport (by Adcock and Shipley) and a Tormach PCNC1100, so the comparison isn't CNC versus CNC, but below is a version of something I wrote on another forum a while back:

The comparison between the Bridgeport and Tormach is an interesting one, on several levels. They both use an R8 taper and are the same nominal spindle power, 1.5hp. The Tormach is about half the weight of the Bridgeport at 500kg.

The drives are different. My Bridgeport has two ranges ( one backgeared) and within each range uses a varispeed pulley system. So ignoring losses full power is available across the speed range. The Tormach has two belt driven ranges and within each range the motor is driven by a VFD. So below base speed (equal to 60Hz) the available power is reduced. The Tormach speed range is 100-5100rpm, while the Bridgeport is 50-3750rpm. I rarely run the Bridgeport above 3000rpm as the head is pretty noisy, whereas the Tormach is dominated by cutting noise, even at maximum rpm. While the Bridgeport is happy running large (>1" cutters and drills at a few hundred rpm the Tormach isn't. But of course with CNC you don't need to run large drills, you just interpolate the hole to any size you want. Although the Tormach requires a little more thought about available power in practical terms there is little difference.

In terms of axes, the Tormach has about half the travel in X, two thirds in Y and is slightly bigger in Z.

With regards to rigidity the jury is out. Compared to many industrial milling machines the Bridgeport isn't particularly rigid, although it is flexible (in at least two senses). I'd say that the Tormach rigidity is on a par with respect to the table movements. The spindle on the Tormach might be a little more rigid as there is no tilt function, although the column is smaller than the Bridgeport.

I tend to use slightly different techniques on each mill. For CNC it's very much run at high rpm and high feedrates with small (<10mm) cutters. Whereas the Bridgeport has the capability to run larger cutters at slow speeds. The Tormach has a sort of quick change capability, and I use the same system on the Bridgeport a lot of the time. So the experience of using the Tormach has modified, to some extent, the way I use the Bridgeport.

When I was purchasing the Tormach my hope was that it would be roughly equal capability to the Bridgeport in terms of metal removal. I think that this has proved to be roughly correct.

Which mill I use depends mostly on ease of setup, time to program and the complexity of the operation rather than basic machine capabilities.

Although I have a rotary table for the Bridgeport it doesn't have the same scope for complex parts as using the 4th axis on the Tormach. Since this was written I have added a high speed (24000rpm) spindle to the Tormach which greatly helps with small (<1mm) cutters, at the expense of being able to use tool tables.

Andrew

Offline mcostello

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Re: Moving Machine Tools
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2017, 02:25:37 PM »
I am glad that You mentioned that the Wife helped You out. I showed the pictures to My Wife and She thought surely You must not be married. ;) My Wife helps with moves but My garage is underneath the house with garage door access. Carry on, good job.