Author Topic: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel  (Read 306531 times)

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4050 on: June 12, 2019, 01:29:26 AM »
Ok Dog go for it!..... :popcornsmall:



 :drinking-41:
Don


Vroom!  Off I go!    :cheers:




For the record, this method of doing the boiler was learned from Kozo's New Shay book, all thicknesses are from his tables, going up to next available size. Worked great on my other models, not messing with success...

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4051 on: June 12, 2019, 01:45:19 AM »
What's that brown stuff?  :Lol:

Former's looking good. Hope you've been working on getting the hammer arm in shape at the gym all winter Chris !   :mischief:

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4052 on: June 12, 2019, 02:00:59 AM »
What's that brown stuff?  :Lol:

Former's looking good. Hope you've been working on getting the hammer arm in shape at the gym all winter Chris !   :mischief:
That brown stuff is the new organic aluminum foam they invented called Wud...   ;D


 :Jester:




Nice thing about forming copper is that it takes so little force to bend when annealed, using a plastic head hammer. I'll spend as much time annealing it  between bends as doing the bending, usually takes about 8 cycles.


I took a class in copper raising a couple of years ago, in that we used planishing hammers and polished metal stakes to do the shaping on a bowl, that style was a lot more work but gave a great organic shape. A local welding shop has a classroom building where they teach metal forming, blacksmithing, welding, glass working, all sorts of handy things.

Offline Steamer5

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4053 on: June 12, 2019, 09:46:54 AM »
Hi Chris,
 Right caught up. Have to say only 7 pages in 2 weeks, but the elves have been busy! Looking really great! Like the red  colour for the body. Would of been interesting to see how you would have done the corrugated shell, think that might of added a day to the build!
At this rate you will be onto the Stanley before Xmas.

Cheers Kerrin
Get excited and make something!

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4054 on: June 12, 2019, 11:52:50 AM »
Hi Chris,
 Right caught up. Have to say only 7 pages in 2 weeks, but the elves have been busy! Looking really great! Like the red  colour for the body. Would of been interesting to see how you would have done the corrugated shell, think that might of added a day to the build!
At this rate you will be onto the Stanley before Xmas.

Cheers Kerrin
I don't know how I would go about making the corrugated version of the roof. If the sheet was corrugated first, bending the arch in would have been difficult. Special slip roll setup maybe? Good thing the quarry put in the flat sheet roof!

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4055 on: June 12, 2019, 04:02:19 PM »
Excellent weather today, so I set up the torch and workbench outside and started bending the end caps to shape using the wood forms I made last time. Started out by annealing the blanks and sandwiching the copper blank between the forms and clamping them tight.

Then using the plastic head hammer, went around the edge to start the bend. Just a hit or two then move on, repeating the circle a couple of times (had to loosen and swing the clamp around to get all the way around the piece). If you take the edge down too much in one spot, it will wrinkle the metal, the goal is to push it down evenly, letting the metal flow - the edge will get thicker than the starting plate, and stretch down.

As you can see, it did not bend down all that far, maybe 20 degrees or so. When the hammer bounces off without moving the metal, it has work hardened and wont go any farther without cracking.

Then, annealed it by heating up to a dull glow and cooling - its okay to quench it in water to keep the process moving, otherwise it would take all day to let it air cool. Copper/brass are different than steel, they get soft when heated, but do not harden when quenched, the only way to harden copper/brass is to work it. Then back for another round with the hammer (BTW - I was doing both sheets, alternating between them, just showing the process on one)


Went farther down, back for annealing again...

Now that it is past the midpoint, it goes quicker, the metal doesn't have as far to move at the edge. Another reheat and hammering...

and again:

Getting close now, next couple rounds will even out the high spots on the waves...

Almost there, one more round...

That got it down to shape. The part was tight around the form, had to pry it off since the edges grabbed a little into the grain.
Here are the two pieces all formed - took about an hour to do both.

The parts are soaking in some pickle acid to clean them up now. The next step will be to remount the form on the lathe faceplate, and use the tailstock to push the other block in tight to hold the plate, and turn the rim to final size. The blocks are sized to give a slightly oversize rim on the plate to leave room for turning it smooth and to final size - not practical (at least at a hobbyist skill level) to take the part to final size and round by hammering.


Offline bouch

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4056 on: June 12, 2019, 06:44:02 PM »

Nice thing about forming copper is that it takes so little force to bend when annealed, using a plastic head hammer. I'll spend as much time annealing it  between bends as doing the bending, usually takes about 8 cycles.

I took a class in copper raising a couple of years ago, in that we used planishing hammers and polished metal stakes to do the shaping on a bowl, that style was a lot more work but gave a great organic shape. A local welding shop has a classroom building where they teach metal forming, blacksmithing, welding, glass working, all sorts of handy things.

My father has a couple nice molds to make lead hammer heads.  They work great on forming copper for boilers, as the lead deforms before they marr the annealed copper.  Once they "wear out", you take the worn out head, melt it and pour it back into the mold.

Lately, hes been (slowly) forming the parts for the boilers for a 2" Case and a Coles' American LaFrance steam fire engine.

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4057 on: June 12, 2019, 07:27:43 PM »
Great copper work Chris!  Glad you enjoyed the sunshine.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4058 on: June 12, 2019, 08:08:45 PM »
Hello Chris,

Beautiful job on forming the Copper :ThumbsUp:

OK you already know that I am not the sharpest Crayola in the box, but could you have purchased an end cap to fit that tube? :noidea: :headscratch:

Have a great day,
Thomas

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4059 on: June 12, 2019, 09:32:17 PM »
Hello Chris,

Beautiful job on forming the Copper :ThumbsUp:

OK you already know that I am not the sharpest Crayola in the box, but could you have purchased an end cap to fit that tube? :noidea: :headscratch:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Doubt it - its not a standard plumbing size as far as I know.  :headscratch: Also, the endcaps I have seen at the hardware store are usually pretty thin. Though, just my luck they are $2 apiece and very heavy!   :shrug:

I am following Kozo's boiler making methods, and just assumed I would have to make them. There will be cross ribs on the inside of the caps to strengthen it for the pressure in the areas where there are not bushings, going by his tables in the New Shay book for maximum unsupported areas.
 :cheers:

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4060 on: June 12, 2019, 09:34:44 PM »

Nice thing about forming copper is that it takes so little force to bend when annealed, using a plastic head hammer. I'll spend as much time annealing it  between bends as doing the bending, usually takes about 8 cycles.

I took a class in copper raising a couple of years ago, in that we used planishing hammers and polished metal stakes to do the shaping on a bowl, that style was a lot more work but gave a great organic shape. A local welding shop has a classroom building where they teach metal forming, blacksmithing, welding, glass working, all sorts of handy things.

My father has a couple nice molds to make lead hammer heads.  They work great on forming copper for boilers, as the lead deforms before they marr the annealed copper.  Once they "wear out", you take the worn out head, melt it and pour it back into the mold.

Lately, hes been (slowly) forming the parts for the boilers for a 2" Case and a Coles' American LaFrance steam fire engine.
Clever hammer design! I've been using the plastic headed one you see in the photos, works well and doesn't dent the copper like a steel one would. The end gets a little chewed when it hits the edge of the sheet, but I figure when it gets too chewed looking that a quick push on the sander will fix it (its nylon, I think)

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4061 on: June 12, 2019, 09:35:20 PM »
Great copper work Chris!  Glad you enjoyed the sunshine.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Wonderful weather out there today, spring is finally here (for a day).   :cheers:

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4062 on: June 12, 2019, 09:42:22 PM »
Most copper pipe caps I have seen available here fit the outside of the tube and are thin as Chris said. I believe the thin ones are intended for low pressure or smoke tests on plumbing piping installs. I've never come across thick ones that fit inside the tube as Kozo's methods suggest, which does give a strong safe boiler construction and looks realistic in terms of a boiler outline. Could be that there are thick ID fit ones existing, but I don't know where to find 'em. :shrug:

If anyone does know, please spill the beans!  :Director:

I usually make any I need just the way Chris did (except I use mild steel formers rather than the special NASA high tech composite "Wud" ones Chris uses).   :cheers:

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4063 on: June 12, 2019, 11:37:54 PM »
This part always makes me nervous and take the cuts gently - copper likes to grab if too deep a cut is taken. I mounted the form block on the faceplate again, and pressed the first endcap against it with a scrap piece that already had a hole in it, instant heavy washer for the live center to press against without making a hole in the copper. Then turned the rim down to size to fit the inside of the boiler shell:

You can see the wavy edge at the end of the cap on the left, that is the last of the wavy pattern the metal made as it was hammered to shape and stretched/moved down. To get rid of that, a pass, very carefully and slow feed in, with the parting tool...

And the real test - fitting the offcut from the boiler tube (deburred around the edge) to see how it fits, and if the measurements were accurate. Good snug sliding fit, just enough for the silver solder to wick into. If I had gone too far by a little, the copper rim could have been spread slightly, but it looks good.

One cap turned down, one to go...




Offline derekwarner

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #4064 on: June 13, 2019, 12:24:33 AM »
Wow......

Planisher of the Year Award  may be appropriate  :Jester: .......

HSS tooling [over carbide] usually helps eliminate any grabbing of annealed copper

Derek
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