Author Topic: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel  (Read 300149 times)

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #960 on: March 29, 2018, 09:24:07 PM »
Well, while Zee is off asking his grandparents about old german terminology for us, I've been working on some more of the little bits on the main boom.
The ends of the axle holding the chain sheaves at the tip of the boom  have flats milled in to keep it from spinning (the sheaves have their own bearings), and are drilled for cotter pins. Some of the pins on the LeRoy shovel have had field repairs, and there are nails, bits of rebar, that sort of thing, but I'll use wire cotters for the model.
Started by milling/drilling the ends of the axle, using the square holder for a 1/4" round collet to get the top/bottom flats to be parallel to each other. When reversing the rod for the other end, I sighted through the back of the collet to line up the flats end to end.

Little square plates were drilled and filed out to fit the ends of the shaft, then drilled/tapped holes in the end of the boom for some 1-72 hex head screws to hold them on.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 09:16:27 PM by crueby »

Offline Don1966

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #961 on: March 29, 2018, 09:34:05 PM »
Love it you cut the other edges first while still plenty of meat on the spokes awesome planning no flex.  :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers: Don

Online sco

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #962 on: March 29, 2018, 09:35:33 PM »
Seems like crowd is excavator terminology with the original source lost in time.  Thought this type of excavator was extinct but the 2016 research paper goes into the technology in some detail so they must still be used: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305473850_Digging_forces_of_Electric_Rope_Shovel_and_Adjustment_made_for_a_Better_Digging_Shovel_Having_Optimum_Rake_and_Tooth_Angles

Simon.
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Offline Farmboy

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #963 on: March 29, 2018, 10:17:18 PM »
If it's any help, I know that the ram that operates the bucket on a modern hydraulic digger is called the crowd ram. I always asumed it was because it crowds the dirt into the bucket, but I'm probably way off mark . . .  :shrug:

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #964 on: March 30, 2018, 12:58:56 AM »
That's exactly where it comes from! Crowding is increasing the pressure. Like a crowd of people, which is where I think the word comes from somewhere in the history of the English language.

I check this thread two or three times a day always knowing there will be some new and wonderful progress made..

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
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Offline derekwarner

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #965 on: March 30, 2018, 01:03:05 AM »
Chris.....won't matter for your build and I remember you mentioning a tar like build up on certain components, but I have wondered if the gearing..... pinion & rack and the straight cut tooth reduction gearing surfaces were run dry without any form of lubrication?

Were the smaller diameter straight cut tooth gears softer than the rack or the large gear? and hence easier and less costly to produce & replace

Any form of tar/pitch like lubricant in the teeth would have simply collected  gravel dust  :hammerbash:

Superb build and thread as usual.................(square drive :old: pinions & holes)...but then again this is turn of the Century machinery...........

Derek
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Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #966 on: March 30, 2018, 02:52:30 AM »
That's exactly where it comes from! Crowding is increasing the pressure. Like a crowd of people, which is where I think the word comes from somewhere in the history of the English language.

I check this thread two or three times a day always knowing there will be some new and wonderful progress made..

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Thanks Pete, that makes sense for why they call it that. Nice to have you along for the ride!

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #967 on: March 30, 2018, 03:05:50 AM »
Chris.....won't matter for your build and I remember you mentioning a tar like build up on certain components, but I have wondered if the gearing..... pinion & rack and the straight cut tooth reduction gearing surfaces were run dry without any form of lubrication?

Were the smaller diameter straight cut tooth gears softer than the rack or the large gear? and hence easier and less costly to produce & replace

Any form of tar/pitch like lubricant in the teeth would have simply collected  gravel dust  :hammerbash:

Superb build and thread as usual.................(square drive :old: pinions & holes)...but then again this is turn of the Century machinery...........

Derek
Hi Derek,


The tar buildup was the coating that they sprayed on the entire machine when they drove it out of the quarry and parked it in the field, now flaking off. It was not there when in use. It did save it for decades, but now that its cracking off needs to be stripped so it doesn't trap water.


From what I have read, they kept the bearings well greased, and the chain got a light oil to keep the inside of the links from grinding through. Don't know about the gears though. No sign of old grease in them, can still see grease in the edges if the bearings.  All are steel, seem to have worn evenly, but can't tell if any were replaced, though the ones in the longer gear trains would be tough to get at, and are quite large. The large ones I just made are about 5 feet in diameter, and show lots of wear.
In the marion catalogs they brag about the shipper shaft being square to avoid broken keys, though I think that the line shaft makers learned that round to square transitions were weak spots. Given how well these held up, must be good metalurgy. Marion made all their own steel, and apparently invented some new alloys. Would have been an amazing place to tour!

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #968 on: March 30, 2018, 03:46:02 AM »
Ah yes, round to square transitions in shafts. When shafts of that nature and period were made they were forged and the ends were upset on the end of the bar and no material was removed. The square and any collar were equal or larger than the bar/shaft.  When milling the square on the end was found to be cheaper than forging, the resulting sharp corners created stress risers that hadn't existed before. Hmmmmm. So there were a few failures. Engineering as usual...... :facepalm:

That link Simon posted really should be read by anyone interested in power shovel dynamics. It takes a common, simple, problem and shows how to optimize a shovel for particular conditions.

And the angular range they work with is within a 5* window... :o

Cool stuff.

Pete
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Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #969 on: March 30, 2018, 04:02:12 AM »
Ah yes, round to square transitions in shafts. When shafts of that nature and period were made they were forged and the ends were upset on the end of the bar and no material was removed. The square and any collar were equal or larger than the bar/shaft.  When milling the square on the end was found to be cheaper than forging, the resulting sharp corners created stress risers that hadn't existed before. Hmmmmm. So there were a few failures. Engineering as usual...... :facepalm:

That link Simon posted really should be read by anyone interested in power shovel dynamics. It takes a common, simple, problem and shows how to optimize a shovel for particular conditions.

And the angular range they work with is within a 5* window... :o

Cool stuff.

Pete
So after the failures with sharp transitions, did they start radiusing the corners to reduce the problems? I can't tell from Marion's pictures since they are too small. They do say they did special hardening on the shafts, and the absence of keys makes it easier to change the gears on the shipper shaft. I noticed that thier other shafts are round with keyed gears.

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #970 on: March 30, 2018, 05:53:32 AM »
Book 'm Dano!!!

Those 'exposed' components were replaced frequently and the 'not so tightly' fitted squares were easy compared to the 'round with key' which, as you know, must be fitted nicely to be a reliable connection.

And that time period, 1890-1930, there were huge developments in iron and steel composition and manufacture. Just like today, any good thing would be adopted pretty quickly. Gotta keep up, ya know.

A hard steel bearing surface, properly finished, will wear almost forever in well lubricated Babbet so that was a feature that was very competitive.

Marion built a fine machine, and built their reputation on being an industry leader. You bet your bippy there was some serious, science based, engineering going on and improvements came frequently.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a half dozen revisions in those parts over the years and that Marion kept them retro-fittable as long as possible. Why have a stack special parts when one or two fit most?

Bla bla bla

Pete
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Offline 10KPete

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #971 on: March 30, 2018, 05:56:12 AM »
WAIT !!!!

Are the sides of the square parallel or is it a tapered square???? Not likely as it's harder to do. A straight sided square hole is easy...

Pete
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Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #972 on: March 30, 2018, 03:37:40 PM »
WAIT !!!!

Are the sides of the square parallel or is it a tapered square???? Not likely as it's harder to do. A straight sided square hole is easy...

Pete
It looks like a parallel sided square section, though the corners are rounded in the square areas. Here is a page from one of the catalogs I have that talks about it:

It would appear that they used a cross key or peg to keep the gears in position on the ends of the shaft, to prevent them sliding off.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 09:16:59 PM by crueby »

Offline Farmboy

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #973 on: March 30, 2018, 05:37:00 PM »
Hmmm, recreating that little setup would have been an interesting challenge for the elves, especially treating "to secure the greatest hardness and toughness"  :LittleDevil:


Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #974 on: March 30, 2018, 05:44:24 PM »
Hmmm, recreating that little setup would have been an interesting challenge for the elves, especially treating "to secure the greatest hardness and toughness"  :LittleDevil:

Fortunately these are shop elves, NOT marketoid-elves (ick!), spouting all the 'making it morer betterer' nonsense with made up words!!   :Lol: