Author Topic: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel  (Read 311998 times)

Offline J.L.

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #765 on: February 28, 2018, 07:21:14 PM »
Hi Chris,
A wonderful last shot to conclude the process.
Absolutely brilliant work.
John

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #766 on: February 28, 2018, 07:49:56 PM »
Hi Chris,
A wonderful last shot to conclude the process.
Absolutely brilliant work.
John
Thanks John - now about that quarry diorama model....!  :Lol:

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #767 on: March 01, 2018, 12:38:36 AM »
Wow. Seems like yesterday you were turtlle-ing.
Wonderful progress and pictures.
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
"To work. To work."
Zee-Another Thread Trasher.

Offline derekwarner

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #768 on: March 01, 2018, 12:44:14 AM »
So Chris, firstly.. this is a 'lifting' pulley as it lifts the bucket arm, as distinct from the 'luffing' pulley [orientated in the horizontal plane] for raising or lowering [luffing] the jib beam?, is my assumption correct?.... it does make a difference in understanding :facepalm:

Is this pulley [wheel] free to rotate in the outer sheave plates, or does the chain simply slide through the channel recess as machined in the centre of the pulley?

Where I am coming from, is with the actual pulley sheave block would have been subject to wear, dust and a high level of friction between the chain links & the wheel and hence create a series of flats on the major diameter of the wheel?....if this happened, the friction between the chain & the wheel would tend to rotate the wheel

Also somewhere down the track, you will need to manufacture the luffing pulley.....will it be of a similar design with the luffing jib chain sliding around the when channel recess?

Or a final question :facepalm2:, is the luffing of the jib by wire or chain?

Derek
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 01:12:07 AM by derekwarner_decoy »
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Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #769 on: March 01, 2018, 02:05:44 AM »
So Chris, firstly.. this is a 'lifting' pulley as it lifts the bucket arm, as distinct from the 'luffing' pulley [orientated in the horizontal plane] for raising or lowering [luffing] the jib beam?, is my assumption correct?.... it does make a difference in understanding :facepalm:

Is this pulley [wheel] free to rotate in the outer sheave plates, or does the chain simply slide through the channel recess as machined in the centre of the pulley?

Where I am coming from, is with the actual pulley sheave block would have been subject to wear, dust and a high level of friction between the chain links & the wheel and hence create a series of flats on the major diameter of the wheel?....if this happened, the friction between the chain & the wheel would tend to rotate the wheel

Also somewhere down the track, you will need to manufacture the luffing pulley.....will it be of a similar design with the luffing jib chain sliding around the when channel recess?

Or a final question :facepalm2: , is the luffing of the jib by wire or chain?

Derek
I'll try and elevate the discussion (lifting it) rather than drag it sideways (luffing)....


Nah!


This is definitely a pulley used for lifting, and lowering actually, with the chain connected to the main hoist engine.


When I hear of luffing, I think of letting the sail get too close to the wind and having it flap.... The entire boom assembly, main and dipper, rotates horizontally on a turntable with the slewing chain wrapped around the rim. That does have guide wheels at the back for the slew chain, but they are on fixed stands and look more like car rims, no shell around them.


The sheave in this pulley rotates on its axle inside the shell, turning with the chain. Its possible that it could develop flats from the chain over time, but I don't see that on the shovel here.


The only other sheaves on this shovel are the guide wheels along the main boom, and two at the tip of it that act with this pulley. When the turnable rotates, the vertical section of the chain that goes through the axis of rotation will twist to keep the chain in line on the guide wheels.


On the dredge version of the shovels, they did use cables in place of chains sometimes, but these large shovels from Marion were all chain at that time.


In their manuals, they give instructions for oiling the chain to keep wear to a minimum, and also recommend swapping ends periodically, and removing the links at the bucket end if they wear. Marion made all their own chain, had high specs for the alloys.


I think I covered all your questions, let me know if not! Very often the questions make me take a closer look at something that I have ignored myself!

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #770 on: March 01, 2018, 02:08:57 AM »
Wow. Seems like yesterday you were turtlle-ing.
Wonderful progress and pictures.
Waiting for some final parts, hope to be turtling at the pool Sunday evening.


Starting Monday there may be another break in the build as I go in for some heavy dental work.  :-[

Offline steamboatmodel

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #771 on: March 01, 2018, 03:46:54 AM »
I hope your dental work comes out ok. Tuesday I go in for a heart procedure. they say the quickest way to a mans heart is through his stomach, not so they go through your groin most of the time.
Gerald.
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors--and miss. Lazarus Long

Offline Steamer5

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #772 on: March 01, 2018, 05:36:15 AM »
Hi Chris,
 Well 4 pages & I was only away 7 days! Enjoyed the catchup, the turtle is coming on great, nice to see how the the gear is all housed.
The pulley came out cool! After reading Derek’s query’s I went looking to see if I could find a picture of a “chain pulley” ....failed miserably! I was wondering IF the full size one had not a pulley as you have made, which I’m sure will work, but one that is set up so that it has the opposite configuration, hope that makes sense, which grips the alternate links. You find them in chain block hand winches, I’ve also see them used on valves were then valve is hi up.

Cheers Kerrin
Get excited and make something!

Offline derekwarner

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #773 on: March 01, 2018, 07:48:19 AM »
This [lower right] is about the best representation image I could find of a ....cast steel simple linked chain wheel......this obviously will transmit rotary motion, whereas the chain pulley wheel Chris has manufactured does not necessarily rotate nor transmit rotary motion...... [I must have been just getting  :hammerbash: ]
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 07:57:39 AM by derekwarner_decoy »
Derek Warner - Honorary Secretary [Retired]
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Offline ShopShoe

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #774 on: March 01, 2018, 12:45:14 PM »
There is a good chain pulley in this video. Brian Block is building a large shop in an old barn and incorporates a bridge crane. The crane had been manually chain-driven, then electrified, then Brian decided to convert it back to chain operation. This video is part of the process.


If you have also followed Brian (bcbloc02 on YouTube), you will know that he did not replace the lifting cable and a heavy load fell while lifting (Worst Shop Day). Several of the other YouTube machining community have mentioned this. All in all, his shop build and posts show a one-man-band building a shop for heavy machining using large machines.

--ShopShoe

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #775 on: March 01, 2018, 12:46:43 PM »
Kerrin/Derek, you guys are overthinking this one - this pulley, and the other sheaves in the boom, are not transmitting power by going from rotary to linear like a gear does. They are just guides like a pulley for ropes is, just keeping the chains in a track.
The pulley that I'm making now has sheaves that look exactly like these do, which are at the top of the main boom  - I don't have a picture that shows it this clearly at the pulley, since the pulley has the shell around it, but the sheave looks identical to these:

They are just simple wheels with a groove for every other link to sit vertically. No indents to generate power from or push the chain.
For the turntable, these are the guides - again, simple smooth shells, look like car tire rims:

One is horizontal, the other has a slight angle, to guide the chain on one side to the bottom of the winch drum, the other to the top of the drum. The chain ends go around the rim of the turntable here:

and the ends are bolted into the bottom of the main boom. There is no indent or sprocket in the turntable, just the chains own weight to hold them down against the vertical lip. The middle of the chain wraps several times around the winch drum.
On the hoist chain, the end of the chain goes around its winch drum and secures to a half link welded to the side of the drum on the inside.

Hope that helps!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 09:04:33 PM by crueby »

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #776 on: March 01, 2018, 12:51:58 PM »
There is a good chain pulley in this video. Brian Block is building a large shop in an old barn and incorporates a bridge crane. The crane had been manually chain-driven, then electrified, then Brian decided to convert it back to chain operation. This video is part of the process.


If you have also followed Brian (bcbloc02 on YouTube), you will know that he did not replace the lifting cable and a heavy load fell while lifting (Worst Shop Day). Several of the other YouTube machining community have mentioned this. All in all, his shop build and posts show a one-man-band building a shop for heavy machining using large machines.

--ShopShoe
Thats a neat video, great mechanism!

Again, that is not the type of pulley on the Marion (we were posting at the same time) - the wheels here are just smooth guides, not used to pull on the chain. All the power application to the chain is done by the winch drums, with multiple wraps of chain side by side on the slew drum, tensioned by bolts at the ends where they attach to the boom. For the hoist, the and of the chain shackles to the inside edge of the drum, then there were multiple wraps and layers of chain around the drum - no indents for links in the drums, the drums are several feet across with large sides to keep the chain contained.

Offline Farmboy

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #777 on: March 01, 2018, 01:04:36 PM »
Great progress with the sheave block. Another masterclass in fabrication  :cheers:

As you say, the pulleys are just guides to change the direction of the pull so would always have been smooth. However, in the spirit of 'nit-picking', I wonder if the original block would have been open at the bottom to allow dirt, gravel, rocks, etc. to fall through rather than build up and jam the pulley? It appears to be so in the photo of full size one.

Clearly not likely to be a big problem on the model . . . so I'll get my coat  :paranoia:

Mike.

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #778 on: March 01, 2018, 01:06:46 PM »
More details - here is one of the guide pulleys on the main boom - this one takes the chain coming down the boom and sends it vertically through the middle of the turntable:

There is another underneath the turntable to send it back horizontally to the winch drum inside the cab:

Note that there is no chain on this on at the moment - when they abandoned the shovel, they welded the links to the guide wheels above and cut off the remaining chain back to the drum - not sure what they used it for.
Here is the main hoist winch drum, you can see the link welded to the side where it anchored the end. There are grooves worn in the drum from 50 years of use, it started smooth.

And here is the slew drum, the chain here is the middle of the one wrapped around the turntable. No attachment link, since to go around the turntable this chain would have to go more than several times around the drum.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 09:04:52 PM by crueby »

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #779 on: March 01, 2018, 01:09:13 PM »
Great progress with the sheave block. Another masterclass in fabrication  :cheers:

As you say, the pulleys are just guides to change the direction of the pull so would always have been smooth. However, in the spirit of 'nit-picking', I wonder if the original block would have been open at the bottom to allow dirt, gravel, rocks, etc. to fall through rather than build up and jam the pulley? It appears to be so in the photo of full size one.

Clearly not likely to be a big problem on the model . . . so I'll get my coat  :paranoia:

Mike.
I've wondered the same thing about the pulley - the original is damaged on the one side, part of the shell rim is gone, and the sides are bashed in, so its hard to tell. I think the same thing, that there was a gap in the bottom. Next time I get out there I'll take a closer look and see if I can find evidence of where the edge was.

No worries on pointing out anything I have missed - please do!! There are so many details on this machine that it takes many many looks to get them all, and I am not there yet!