Author Topic: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel  (Read 246915 times)

Offline MJM460

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2017, 11:43:18 PM »
Hi Chris, great adaption of that valve gear, I was unable to even see how it worked until you showed your simplified version.  I think that would come in handy for a twin cylinder boat engine, needing only one eccentric per cylinder, a really elegant arrangement.  Even if a separate throttle was required.  Probably much easier to move with a servo than conventional reversing linkages.

I think you are right about needing that condensate drain in the outer section of the steam chest though.  It looks like it will fill with condensate, so may jam before there is enough heat to keep it evaporated.  Or perhaps the condensate just allows the valve to move back and forth with minimal extra resistance.  I am sure I remember you saying locating it is on your list for your visit.

The wonderful work is continuing to your usual standard.

MJM460

By the way, the 1/16 lead screw pitch would go well with the 1/8 pitch on my lathe.  So long as the tape is metal, not plastic like dressmakers use!
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Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #136 on: November 07, 2017, 12:30:34 AM »
Hi Chris, great adaption of that valve gear, I was unable to even see how it worked until you showed your simplified version.  I think that would come in handy for a twin cylinder boat engine, needing only one eccentric per cylinder, a really elegant arrangement.  Even if a separate throttle was required.  Probably much easier to move with a servo than conventional reversing linkages.

I think you are right about needing that condensate drain in the outer section of the steam chest though.  It looks like it will fill with condensate, so may jam before there is enough heat to keep it evaporated.  Or perhaps the condensate just allows the valve to move back and forth with minimal extra resistance.  I am sure I remember you saying locating it is on your list for your visit.

The wonderful work is continuing to your usual standard.

MJM460

By the way, the 1/16 lead screw pitch would go well with the 1/8 pitch on my lathe.  So long as the tape is metal, not plastic like dressmakers use!
It would work well for a boat engine, very compact and a low center of gravity. If made to a slightly larger size, should be doable to include a sleeve like Marion did to give a better throttle behavior to the control valve.  Seems to be one of those forgotten bits of technology.

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #137 on: November 07, 2017, 12:49:14 AM »
That's a fascinating valve, Chris. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it works. I'm really following this thread as there are all sorts of neat mechanicals on a unit like this shovel, mostly forgotten now!

Pete
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Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #138 on: November 07, 2017, 08:20:16 PM »
Some more fiddly bits on the hoist drum assembly - the steam-operated clutch band mechanism which engages/disengages the drum from the gear and shaft it runs on. When the cluth is disengaged, the drum can spin freely on the shaft. The gear that drives the shaft is fixed to the shaft.

This is another place where I found Marion's patent for this mechanism. They put a lever operated band around the end of the hoist drum, tightening the band when the lever moves by way of a small offset rod on the lever pivot. That lever is attached to the gear, and spins with it. The lever is pushed by a small steam operated piston. When the steam is removed, a spring pulls the lever back to the disengaged position. The band has a lining of wood blocks that push on the rim of the hoist drum.

The tricky bit is that the piston and lever are both attached to the large gear, and spin with it. They ran the steam input and exhaust output pipes back down through the shaft, and out the end of the shaft's center, where they have a packing gland that the steam pipe can spin within. They take this pipe, and run it down to a small D-valve box on the floor to control it. Clever bit of plumbing. In previous mechanisms, this clutch would often be actuated by a rod running down the center of the shaft, which worked but was difficult to keep adjusted as it wore.

Anyway, enough words, here are some pictures of how the 3D model of it looks. Here is a side angle showing the lever, piston, and control valve on the floor with all the piping.


And here is a view from the other side of the large gear, showing the hoist drum with the clutch band.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:04:21 PM by crueby »

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #139 on: November 09, 2017, 08:24:09 PM »
While waiting for the trip to get inside/around the Marion shove on Wednesday, been doing some carving on the steersman figure for the Lombard hauler. Shape is roughed down pretty well, ready to do the detail shaping on the face and hands next...

« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:04:31 PM by crueby »

Offline ddmckee54

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #140 on: November 10, 2017, 10:04:09 PM »
In your post on November 7 you were discussing the clutch on the hoist drum.  I get why they used the steam actuated clutch band, that's kind of ingenious. I can even understand why they had to make that device part of the rotating assembly.  There's not a lot of available room there, even though it does add the complexity of rotary couplings for the steam.  But I pity the poor schmoe that they sent out to service this thing - working on this thing in 1:1 scale had to be a nightmare.

Don

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #141 on: November 10, 2017, 10:37:30 PM »
In your post on November 7 you were discussing the clutch on the hoist drum.  I get why they used the steam actuated clutch band, that's kind of ingenious. I can even understand why they had to make that device part of the rotating assembly.  There's not a lot of available room there, even though it does add the complexity of rotary couplings for the steam.  But I pity the poor schmoe that they sent out to service this thing - working on this thing in 1:1 scale had to be a nightmare.

Don
Especially with all the grease, rock dust on everything, all the parts hot, and a quarry foreman breathing down his neck to get it back in operation!

The clutch band, with its wood lining, must have been something needing replacement (the wood part anyway) fairly often. It does not look too hard to get at, as long as the gear was stopped with the clutch and its lever at the top. That gear it is on is about 4 feet in diameter, the clutch cylinder is about 6" bore, so all those parts are quite large and easy to handle. The clutch mechanism itself is simple, but any problem with the piping through the main shaft would be nasty to service.

The brake band is the same type with a wood lining, but at least it is only a semi-circle around the drum, with one end on a threaded tensioning rod, and the other end on the brake lever. I would think it would need replacement often too, even with a durable hardwood for the pads. (pity the apprentice who thought he would help by greasing them!)

Offline Stuart

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #142 on: November 11, 2017, 07:21:33 AM »
Chris
Donít knock the wood

When I start w**k 55 years ago as an apprentice electrical at the local iron work the had lots of electric overhead cranes ( I am 70 now ) those were old then most had wood blocks for brake shoes for the main hoist these were up to about 15 ton lift they worked in very dirty dusty conditions and lasted a couple of years , they were made in the chippies shop on their band saw so were cheap

The bigger modern cranes at 750ton lift in the melting plant used the modern friction material

Great work you are doing in fusion360 a pleasure to see

Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #143 on: November 11, 2017, 12:36:19 PM »
Chris
Donít knock the wood

When I start w**k 55 years ago as an apprentice electrical at the local iron work the had lots of electric overhead cranes ( I am 70 now ) those were old then most had wood blocks for brake shoes for the main hoist these were up to about 15 ton lift they worked in very dirty dusty conditions and lasted a couple of years , they were made in the chippies shop on their band saw so were cheap

The bigger modern cranes at 750ton lift in the melting plant used the modern friction material

Great work you are doing in fusion360 a pleasure to see

Stuart
Hi Stuart,

I wouldn't have thought the wood brake linings would last that long, but the surface area on a 4' drum is quite large, so the load is spread, and the speed is low, so it could last. Do you know what kind of wood they used?

Offline Stuart

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #144 on: November 11, 2017, 02:25:02 PM »
Chris

well there were no Knots in it ,I suspect it was Ash

yours asking a lot for my brain cell I can picture them in my mind and a close grained fudge coloured wood come to mind

drums were of course Cast Iron and as you can imagine well polished

dims 24 in dia 6 inches wide but thats all from memory
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline Flyboy Jim

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #145 on: November 11, 2017, 02:50:11 PM »
Chris

well there were no Knots in it ,I suspect it was Ash

yours asking a lot for my brain cell I can picture them in my mind and a close grained fudge coloured wood come to mind

drums were of course Cast Iron and as you can imagine well polished

dims 24 in dia 6 inches wide but thats all from memory

Might of been something like Ironbark: https://www.woodsolutions.com.au/species/ironbark-grey Ironbark was used a lot in the boat building trade where there was going to be any wear (ex. on the side where a crab or lobster pot would rub or on the bow where the anchor would hit when being pulled).

Jim
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Offline Steam Haulage

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #146 on: November 11, 2017, 03:53:11 PM »
From the background reading I have done on steam shovels in the UK it seems brake blocks were made from Elm. But that was before Dutch Elm Disease in the seventies.

(I have started a new thread to ask some questions about Ruston-Bucyrus so as not to hijack this thread of Chris's.)
Jerry
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Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #147 on: November 11, 2017, 07:42:00 PM »
From the background reading I have done on steam shovels in the UK it seems brake blocks were made from Elm. But that was before Dutch Elm Disease in the seventies.

(I have started a new thread to ask some questions about Ruston-Bucyrus so as not to hijack this thread of Chris's.)
Jerry
An, yes, good old Elm, that was used for lots of things like that before the disease wiped them out.

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #148 on: November 13, 2017, 06:39:15 PM »
Lookie what I found. Not a Marion but very similar. Too bad one can't see the 'rear' end but it's blocked by the coal wagon.

Pete
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Online crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #149 on: November 13, 2017, 07:06:07 PM »
Lookie what I found. Not a Marion but very similar. Too bad one can't see the 'rear' end but it's blocked by the coal wagon.

Pete
Neat - looks like a very similar track system as on the Marion here. I knew that most of the companies offered railroad trucks and giant traction-engine-style wheels on the larger shovels like these, looks like Bucyrus/Erie also had the track option on the big ones. I have not seen much in the way of patents on this style, assume that they all worked off of existing art by that time. The smaller shovels were commonly track mounted. Marion shipped a lot of the track conversion kits for the large rail-mounted shovels starting in 1923, so I assume that the large scale track technology was common by then.

Bucyrus and Erie merged in 1927, then in 1930 they merged with Ruston in UK, but it looks like both the BE and BR names were used for many more decades. So, this shovel must be from 1927-on, any idea which model? Looks like a electric generator on the roof at the back end, just like I've seen on locomotives of the time. Where did you find this picture?

Thanks!