Author Topic: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel  (Read 299033 times)

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #90 on: October 27, 2017, 01:50:31 PM »
That's some mighty fine CAD work you do there Chris!  And a lot of it.  I'll bet your tools are getting jealous of all the time your spending with the computer these days  :LittleDevil:
Kim

I'd rather be making chips than pixels myself, but have gotten the tools for a spin occasionally lately with parts for the RC models and such!

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #91 on: October 27, 2017, 11:33:16 PM »
That's some mighty fine CAD work you do there Chris!  And a lot of it.  I'll bet your tools are getting jealous of all the time your spending with the computer these days  :LittleDevil:
Kim

I'd rather be making chips than pixels myself, but have gotten the tools for a spin occasionally lately with parts for the RC models and such!
Ahhh, feeling much better, got to make some swarf turning out some air hose fittings, getting ready to run the engines all together at Cabin Fever..

Offline Mcgyver

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2017, 12:27:08 AM »
very impressive.  I saw one (tracked style) at the Milton Steam show a few years and thought it would make an excellent model.  My hats off to you for doing instead of thinking about it :)

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2017, 02:19:50 AM »
very impressive.  I saw one (tracked style) at the Milton Steam show a few years and thought it would make an excellent model.  My hats off to you for doing instead of thinking about it :)
Not familiar with that show, just looked it up, have to see if I can get there next year, only a few hours from here!

Offline Mcgyver

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2017, 04:04:51 PM »
Not familiar with that show, just looked it up, have to see if I can get there next year, only a few hours from here!

If you can, its an amazing collection of steam and mechanical things - 2 shovels were there last time I went as well as a lot working traction engines, antique tractors, bulldozers etc. 

I don't like when people hijack threads, but since the subject is old shovels, I thought you might like some photos from the show (4 years ago).  The covered one I thought would make a great model - it might have been Mike Mulligan's lol.  afaik its operating and not to far from me.....it's just I'm scared to take on another project until some of the 500 current ones get done :)











« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 04:08:42 PM by Mcgyver »

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2017, 07:51:42 PM »
Great pics of those 2 shovels, thanks! I've added that show to my list, hope to make the next one. Surprised they have room there, thought Toronto had overrun everything nearby with skyscrapers and traffic!

That covered one (red/green cab) looks to be an Erie, model 30? Great machines!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 08:06:28 PM by crueby »

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2017, 07:06:01 PM »
While waiting for the visit to the Marion shovel in a couple weeks, I've been working on some other things (started carving a steersman for the Lombard hauler, pics when that is farther along), and also doing some more research in to the Marion shovel mechanisms. Today I was reading through more of the original patents from Marion (most are under the names George W King, Charles B King, and H J Barnhart, the head brains behind Marion Steam Shovel). A lot of them are about general ways the frames are made, the shapes of the buckets, that sort of thing.

Two of them are going to be VERY helpful on this model - one details how the steam-operated clutch band works on the hoisting drum, the other shows the inner workings of the slew and crowd engines (which are nearly identical). The drawings in the patents match both the pictures in their #50 catalog and also the pictures of the real things that I have. With the cross-section drawings and descriptions in detail of each part and what they do, I can definitely 3D model up those parts (still need some in-person measurements of them to get the overall sizes) even though the real machine is not available to be disassembled. Excellent when research pays off like this!!   ;D

Here are a couple of the drawings from the original patents, there are a bunch more but these show the kinds of detail they have:







Just goes to show - you can never beat access to original documents, and research can pay off (not always, but its worth the try!)
 :cheers:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:00:57 PM by crueby »

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2017, 09:55:21 PM »
Been reading through those two patents, the hoist drum clutch is probably do-able on the model, only tricky bit is the rotating coupling for the steam supply pipe but that should be do-able with an o-ring seal. The pressure it has to hold is low, it only needs to be able to move the lever pulling the clutch band in. There are all-mechanical options as well.

For the slew/crowd engine, that is one complicated casting for the valve chambers!!  :insane:

What they did was use just a single eccentric per cylinder for the valves, and had a lever that moves a central piston valve back and forth, at one end it connects the steam/exhaust passages in one order, at the other end the passages are connected the opposite way, and the slide D-valves in the steam chests have a hollow passage for the gases in the center, and another open one in the bottom - very clever, I need to come up with some diagrams for it to explain it better.

The advantages of thier arrangement are several:
 - the throttle can be left wide open, since the reversing lever has a graduated set of openings that allow the engine to be run slow to fast, depending how far in one direction the lever is moved.
- in the center position, there is no steam flow to the cylinders at all, stopping the engine.
- for the slew engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the middle (stopped) position, both cylinders are connected to exhaust, so the engine freewheels, allowing the turntable holding the boom to drift to a stop
- for the crowd engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the stopped position, the cylinders are set so neither goes to exhaust, deadlocking the engine so it holds its position, keeping the dipper boom in position.

For the model, this setup would require a very small, very complicated set of passages, which may not be possible to duplicate the way they did it. I think it is going to require some sketches and a simplified version, pretty sure its been done on other model engines, just need to find an example. One that I can think of is that wonderful Monitor engine (not the simpler one some of us have built), which has a plate that swaps the steam lines somehow. Anyone know of an example engine that does this - uses a seperate valve to do the reversing via the passages, rather than depending on a linkage from the crankshaft (as in a Stephenson or walschaerts setup)?

Offline Stuart

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #98 on: October 31, 2017, 07:26:11 AM »
Quote
The advantages of thier arrangement are several:
 - the throttle can be left wide open, since the reversing lever has a graduated set of openings that allow the engine to be run slow to fast, depending how far in one direction the lever is moved.
- in the center position, there is no steam flow to the cylinders at all, stopping the engine.
- for the slew engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the middle (stopped) position, both cylinders are connected to exhaust, so the engine freewheels, allowing the turntable holding the boom to drift to a stop


Chris thatís how full size locoís are operated

Regulator wide open and speed controlled with the regulator

But 5 inch and above models can also be driven that way when the track is long enough itís a very nice way to run a loco when you are using the steam expansively much smoother

You are doing very well in your research into your new project  got plenty of  :popcorn: in

Stuart
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 08:40:29 AM by Jo »
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #99 on: October 31, 2017, 12:15:06 PM »
Quote
The advantages of thier arrangement are several:
 - the throttle can be left wide open, since the reversing lever has a graduated set of openings that allow the engine to be run slow to fast, depending how far in one direction the lever is moved.
- in the center position, there is no steam flow to the cylinders at all, stopping the engine.
- for the slew engine, the center valve length is set up so that in the middle (stopped) position, both cylinders are connected to exhaust, so the engine freewheels, allowing the turntable holding the boom to drift to a stop


Chris that’s how full size loco’s are operated

Regulator wide open and speed controlled with the regulator

But 5 inch and above models can also be driven that way when the track is long enough it’s a very nice way to run a loco when you are using the steam expansively much smoother

You are doing very well in your research into your new project  got plenty of  :popcorn: in

Stuart
On these engines they took that one step further and combined the regulator with the reversing valve, all small enough to fit inside the engine block. Quite ingenious!


In order to really understand the passages, I think I will model them as a negative, model the passages as solids with no block around them, like the casting cores would be. Should give a better idea of how it all works, and will then use that to cut the outer block in the 3d model. In looking at the patent drawings, I'm amazed that they could think this one up, let alone cast it!

« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:01:15 PM by crueby »

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #100 on: November 01, 2017, 02:52:13 PM »
I've started designing up the slew/crowd engines (same engine except for the gear on the crankshaft) based on the drawings and information in the patent from 1907, which has amazingly detailed cross-section views and descriptions of all the parts and passages. So far I have the cylinders and outer shell of the steam chest/reverse valve chest.

The next step is the really complex one - going through the cross section drawings one by one and piecing in the internal passages and ports. The cross sections look to have all I need to do that, its just that there are so many of them - it has the ability to swap the steam input and exhaust output feeds to both cylinders. Maybe by the end I'll have some clue as to how they cast this beast, right now I think its impossible without cast-iron-eating-elves!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:01:30 PM by crueby »

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #101 on: November 01, 2017, 08:27:37 PM »
Some more done on the valve chest passages. Here is a cutaway view showing the slots down from the valve slider face to the cylinders:

and a side view showing those passages as well as the ones inside the valve slider:

The slider is in red, and rather than just the typical rectangular recess in the base, it has two internal passages. There is the half-round one in the base, and also a curved slot that runs through the middle. This is part of the clever bit in this engine, where they can swap the input steam and output exhaust flows. The slider connects pairs of passages - two to the cylinder, plus the normal central one and a new one at the left. Those two are what change 'meaning' depending on the setting of the throttle/reverse valve which is in the center between the cylinders (have not modeled that part yet). There are a bunch more passages that will connect these up with that valve, will start modeling them next. Remember, this is not my design, I am drawing the engines from the Marion patent drawings, as they existed 100+ years ago.
Here is a view under the bottom of the slider, showing its passages:

« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:01:37 PM by crueby »

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2017, 12:39:41 AM »
 :happyreader:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete  (with apologies to Marvin)
Craftsman, Tinkerer, Curious Person.
Retired, finally!
SB 10K lathe, Benchmaster mill. And stuff.

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #103 on: November 02, 2017, 01:29:25 AM »
:happyreader:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete  (with apologies to Marvin)

Thanks Pete!

I'll take the liberty of translating for him:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
  "Avidly reading along in your thread!"

  "Like watching a good movie, need lots of popcorn!"

  "Cheers!"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 :facepalm2:

I find that these cutaway views allow for about an hours work at a time, after that the visualization circuits overheat and I need to go do something else for half a day, then I can come back and do some more. The information is all there in the patent, and I am blown away by how many wrap-around shapes he was able to design in the days of pen/pencil and paper alone. Probably a fair bet that he built up a number of wood-block models as well, but some people don't need that either. Quite an impressive design, getting that many features into such a small space, but keeping it all robust enough that these things would run for decades with minimal repairs and parts replacement. The main wear item in the valving is the spool slider down the center of the engine, which ran in a sleeve inserted into the casting so that they could replace the sleeve and slider if they wore out.

Offline joe d

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #104 on: November 02, 2017, 04:05:02 PM »
Chris:

Following along with great interest, this promises to be another good'un.

You could combine several of your interests, here's a photo of a Marion dragline
on a barge dredging the harbour  in Halifax Nova Scotia in 1910...

would provide enough depth of water for a submarine...



Cheers, Joe