Author Topic: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel  (Read 574993 times)

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3825 on: May 07, 2019, 05:01:29 PM »
Re builder and number plates - just an idea - if you could accept the backing being 1/32" thick fibreglass and the letters being .010" high copper, you could have the plates made by any printed circuit mail order supplier, and in the USA, and for not much money. pad2pad and expresspcb are two examples. When ordering you specify 1/32" FR4 and maximum thickness copper pour PCB material. Just food for thought.

Another approach - have someone with a superfine resolution 3D printer make some full size models of the plates in PLA resin, embed them in investment plaster, burn out the PLA, and cast the plates in brass or aluminum in your shop. If you search for Myfordboy in Youtube he recently posted some excellent videos on making tiny leaf spring models and some gorgeous tiny handwheels by this method.

The engines and plumbing are looking good!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re - three stooges plumbing job - I remember one show where the stooges plumbed a house and had running water coming out of the light switches, and lights coming on when they turned on the sink faucets! Now those guys were real plumbers!
For the names on the top of the steam chest lids, that circuit board method could work, but the others are for the smokebox door on the boiler and would be subjected to fairly high heat. I dont have the setup to do castings in metal, though 3D printing would be a great way to get the master made, assuming a fine detail plastic.

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3826 on: May 07, 2019, 06:48:53 PM »
Did some looking around, and decided to try something completely different (Python fans laugh here). I made up the stl design files for the nameplates, and uploaded them to Shapeways to see how bad it would be to get them printed/cast in brass. Turns out that I could get all the plates needed for less than the photo-etch cost, plus the letters will be deeper and the plates thicker than the photoetch versions. So, worth a try, put in the order for them, should have them in two weeks - will see how the quality/legibility compares. For a true comparison, I included a copy of the Lombard nameplate, which I have in photo-etch already, will be an interesting comparison - stay tuned on that!

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3827 on: May 07, 2019, 07:55:32 PM »
I thought about that way, but not sure how to hold them for soldering. Do you have a jig?

Hi Chris

Well - no actually not. I don't remember how I did the last ones (its more than 4 years ago :o )
I think I used small kiln furniture to position those pieces and then solderd them. If necessary, I corrected the position after adding silver solder.

But it would definitely be a good idea to work with a jig, especially if you have to make more than two or three.

Florian

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3828 on: May 07, 2019, 08:29:40 PM »
Hi Chris, I look forward to hear how the Lombard photoetch / Marion Shapeways printed brass plates compare.

Did Shapeways tell you they were casting the parts in brass? The reason I ask is that their normal process for making metal parts is not casting. They usually 3D print the parts oversize in a resin filament heavily loaded with the metal powder being used, ie brass. After printing they sinter the parts in a furnace to burn off the carrier plastic resin in the filament, and bond the metal particles together (similar to how Oilite bearings and powder metal parts are made but without the pressing under high force step.) Have seen some great results of this filament/sinter process for jewellery or other parts where high accuracy is not needed but good finish and appearance is. Dimensional stability/ accuracy suffers in the sintering phase and the parts partially melt. Of course this will not matter so much if sizes drift a little on your plates or jewellery for example, they are not fitting parts.

There is another type of additive manufacturing called DMS for direct metal sintering. In this process a layer of metal powder is laid out and a high power laser passes over it in a pattern and fuses the powder together. Excellent finishes and high dimensional accuracies (+/-.003" or better) are very possible. The machine and run time in this process is far more expensive than the fused / sintered filament process. EOS make the best DMS machines I have seen, if you want to look into it further. In industry I have had several mould cavities made with this process and results are excellent. A 60 mm dia x 28 mm drum shaped insert costs about USD$1800.00. Cavities still need to be finish-EDM'd to size, but most other features can be used directly off the machine, the parts can be very hard stainless steel right off the machine. Weird shaped cooling passages are no problem. Lots of surgical bone implants for skull orthopaedics particularly, and also special turbine blade shapes with internal passages are made on these machines.
"I've cut that stock three times, and it's still too short!"

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3829 on: May 07, 2019, 09:06:46 PM »
Hi Chris, I look forward to hear how the Lombard photoetch / Marion Shapeways printed brass plates compare.

Did Shapeways tell you they were casting the parts in brass? The reason I ask is that their normal process for making metal parts is not casting. They usually 3D print the parts oversize in a resin filament heavily loaded with the metal powder being used, ie brass. After printing they sinter the parts in a furnace to burn off the carrier plastic resin in the filament, and bond the metal particles together (similar to how Oilite bearings and powder metal parts are made but without the pressing under high force step.) Have seen some great results of this filament/sinter process for jewellery or other parts where high accuracy is not needed but good finish and appearance is. Dimensional stability/ accuracy suffers in the sintering phase and the parts partially melt. Of course this will not matter so much if sizes drift a little on your plates or jewellery for example, they are not fitting parts.

There is another type of additive manufacturing called DMS for direct metal sintering. In this process a layer of metal powder is laid out and a high power laser passes over it in a pattern and fuses the powder together. Excellent finishes and high dimensional accuracies (+/-.003" or better) are very possible. The machine and run time in this process is far more expensive than the fused / sintered filament process. EOS make the best DMS machines I have seen, if you want to look into it further. In industry I have had several mould cavities made with this process and results are excellent. A 60 mm dia x 28 mm drum shaped insert costs about USD$1800.00. Cavities still need to be finish-EDM'd to size, but most other features can be used directly off the machine, the parts can be very hard stainless steel right off the machine. Weird shaped cooling passages are no problem. Lots of surgical bone implants for skull orthopaedics particularly, and also special turbine blade shapes with internal passages are made on these machines.
Hi CNR - the process they use for metals varies with the kind of metal. And may change over time as they get new processes I would think.  Here is what they CURRENTLY say for brass:
Quote
Brass models are fabricated using lost wax casting. First, the model is printed in wax using a specialized high-resolution 3D Printer. It is then put in a container where liquid plaster is poured in around it. Once the plaster sets, the wax is melted out in a furnace, and the remaining plaster becomes the mold.

Molten brass is poured into this mold and set to harden. The plaster is broken away, revealing your new product. Natural Brass is briefly tumbled. Polished Brass is carefully cleaned and hand polished. Please be aware that polishing can wear down or fill in very fine details and edges.
I would imagine that they have optimized their processes for brass, gold, silver, etc for the jewelry market, which is most of what people want for those metals. For Aluminum they use sintering, and for steel.... um, wait, just looking and they dont list steel anymore, pretty sure they used to, using a steel/bronze mix from powder... So, looks like they do change over time!

EDIT: Never mind, just spotted the steel entry. Here is what they say for it:

Quote
To build steel models, special 3D printers deposit small drops of glue onto layers of stainless steel powder, one layer at a time, until the print is complete. We carefully remove these models from the printer. At this stage of the process, the objects are very fragile, similar to wet sand. The models then go through an infusion process that replaces the glue with bronze, creating a full metal product. Models are then processed to achieve your desired finish, sprayed with a sealant, and shipped to you.

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3830 on: May 07, 2019, 09:15:13 PM »
I thought about that way, but not sure how to hold them for soldering. Do you have a jig?

Hi Chris

Well - no actually not. I don't remember how I did the last ones (its more than 4 years ago :o )
I think I used small kiln furniture to position those pieces and then solderd them. If necessary, I corrected the position after adding silver solder.

But it would definitely be a good idea to work with a jig, especially if you have to make more than two or three.

Florian
Thanks!

Another member here emailed me a picture of another alternate way - there are some of the brass elbow/tee fittings used for tubing, with barbed ends, that have the center part looking just like what we want with the curved edges already done. Take those, cut off the barbed tips, and drill for the metal tubing. They are available down to 1/8" ID rubber tube. I found some online, and ordered a handful - only about $1.75 apiece - when they get here I'll try them out and post some pics after modifying them. This is what they look like to start, should save a few steps:


Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3831 on: May 07, 2019, 09:21:53 PM »
This afternoon (morning got eaten by the computer in one of its time-warps) I got the new piping and valves tested out on the hoist/slew engines. It was acting odd, like the flow was way down on the slew side of things. Tracked it back to the first Tee fitting, which I had through-drilled at the tubing size rather than leaving a step, so the tubing had slid in too far and blocked the side hole partly. Whoops. All the others have the step, missed on that one. So, re-soldered that in the proper place, and that got the flow back, but then I found a spot on the hoist clutch valve tube that I want to redo to fix a leak. Round and round we go...!

Offline gary.a.ayres

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3832 on: May 08, 2019, 06:24:25 AM »
Need for final fettling notwithstanding, the plumbing looks great.

 :ThumbsUp:

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3833 on: May 08, 2019, 02:24:27 PM »
Well, the 3d print/cast route is out - the level of detail needed is just too small for their machines and it got bounced on review before printing. Took another look, and to get the lettering thick enough just does not work. Back to finding a photo-etch solution!

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3834 on: May 08, 2019, 05:01:21 PM »
Photo etching is really a pretty easy process to do in the home shop, attached is a photo of a small R&V tag I made for a friends engine.

Dave

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3835 on: May 08, 2019, 05:58:41 PM »
Photo etching is really a pretty easy process to do in the home shop, attached is a photo of a small R&V tag I made for a friends engine.

Dave
That looks great!  I looked at a couple of home kits, one thing they seemed to have in common was needing a mask printed with toner based printer or copier. Can it be done with inkjet?

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3836 on: May 08, 2019, 06:14:32 PM »
I used press-n-peal transfer paper and a laser printer, http://www.techniks.com/
Not sure if there is a process for ink jet, you could always run down to the copy store to do the print.
I purchased my ferric chloride from Radio Shack and used an iron to do the transfer, probably no need to purchase a kit.

Dave

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3837 on: May 09, 2019, 12:07:13 AM »
I used press-n-peal transfer paper and a laser printer, http://www.techniks.com/
Not sure if there is a process for ink jet, you could always run down to the copy store to do the print.
I purchased my ferric chloride from Radio Shack and used an iron to do the transfer, probably no need to purchase a kit.

Dave
Thanks - will check them out. That system looks pretty straightforward. I assume you put a solid layer on the back so you only etched the front? Systems like the Micromark one jump through a lot of hoops to do through-etching on thin sheets, where we just want a single-sided etch which should be simpler, without all the special alignments needed. Also, looks like this does not need any light exposure step, the transfer paper does the same job?

Afterthought - I have been using a pigment based inkjet printer for years (since I was on the R&D team at Kodak that created them), but am down to my last couple of cartridges that followed me home when they went bust and blew up all the buildings. So, was figuring on getting a toner-based machine soon anyway, since the inkjet companies (ours included) didnt want you to know that if you were an infrequent user, the inkjet printers wasted way more ink in cleaning the head than you ever got to put on paper.... So, may have a way to print on the transfer paper directly soon...!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 12:16:08 AM by crueby »

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3838 on: May 09, 2019, 12:42:34 AM »
Yes, I used vinyl tape to seal the back and other areas not to be etched.

Dave

Offline gadabout

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Re: Chris's Marion 91 Steam Shovel
« Reply #3839 on: May 09, 2019, 01:09:33 AM »
I remember doing a circuit board a few years ago using the work photocopier and Ironing it on , think I had the darkness button wound right up the scale so there was more black stuff on the paper! Got something in my mind that I had to print it out in reverse too. then etched it , worked a treat!
Mark

 

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