Author Topic: Help with fittings on a Boiler  (Read 13073 times)

Online Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2017, 01:03:36 AM »
Well   I read this, and say    Wow Dave, you sound like a grumpy old curmudgeon!   

Well....Not quite old yet....though I'm getting there by most standards,

Grumpy?  well maybe.   but not mean......hear me out

I want everyone to have fun.    If you haven't gaged by my handle, I'm a steam guy   have been for some time.

I love it when people run steam, and have fun doing it, and showing others how much fun it is.       That said.

I want everyone to go home with as many eyes, teeth and other various body parts as the came with.   Poor practice gets my attention.

I especially don't want to see the wondrous eyes of a child hurt by a bad joint, or a broken bit even on a small boiler.  That's my own personal nightmare scenario.

So lets be safe, and get the facts.    There are a good deal of small boilers on this site that run and make steam a plenty.   Some have been designed by pro's who really do know how to design and build a hobby boiler.     

ok......now   nuf said.

Dave


Hi Dave,

Sorry that I have in any way caused you so much grief. My aim in life ( what little time I do have left ) surely is not to upset anyone for any reason.

I shared my build on MY Boiler here on MEM because several members asked that I do so.

I had over forty years designing and engineering for both the petrochemical and the marine industry with a stellar reputation. I am approved and certified by both the United States Coast Guard ( mic number IAT ) and the American Bureau of Shipping.

If you consider my build and information here as "poor practice" then delete the post.

Sorry that you did not have the time to PM me if I was causing a problem.

Again, I do apologize to you and everyone else that I have offended in any form or fashion.

I will withdraw my offer of free plans on this unit.

You have a wonderful day now.

Thomas

Offline paul gough

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2017, 02:16:49 AM »
Thomas, you have been presenting an interesting boiler design and I appreciate your efforts and preparedness to share your journey with us, so please continue with your work, I would have liked to see the plans.

Boiler design, especially in the model community has always been ultra-conservative and reactionary when it comes to challenging the dominant ideology or paradigms. In Australia builders of gauge one boilers suffered some unnecessary interference from the model code masters who imposed a sub-miniature boiler code, legally binding. Some experienced builders objected and were publicly criticised, but their experiments have shown the code writers were not up to the game. Some attempts at destructive testing of little boilers failed, they did not blow up or otherwise fail at enormous pressures, e.g. 1000psi. Also of late, a low crown type loco boiler has been built in 7/8ths scale principally for coal burning and it has shown its merits, one merit, demonstrated practically, that running it dry without any attempt to pull the fire does not overheat the materials or endanger the integrity of the boiler, the design was also analysed by computer modelling and again proved sound. I understand the code is now going to be re-written. Please note; the above is an illustration of my argument, it is an overly brief summary, not intended to 'guide' a builder and in no way supports BAD PRACTICE, design wise or in workmanship.

So Thomas, you are presenting something challenging to the thinking of many people who I suspect may not be privy to all your thinking and all the data you are using. Of course I am assuming you are competent and diligent, as I expect most of the questioners of your ideas are, but there should be no accusations of poor practice unless it is proven to be the case and there is a need to be aware even proven formulae might need to be interpreted or adapted to accomodate a design that might not fit too neatly. Experimentation and challenging tribal thinking is what got us to where we are in the modern world. There is no reason why such challenging should not occur in the model world or be freely communicated. Please continue with your work so we may see the results and learn. Regards, Paul Gough.



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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2017, 02:20:29 AM »
Well   I read this, and say    Wow Dave, you sound like a grumpy old curmudgeon!   

Well....Not quite old yet....though I'm getting there by most standards,

Grumpy?  well maybe.   but not mean......hear me out

I want everyone to have fun.    If you haven't gaged by my handle, I'm a steam guy   have been for some time.

I love it when people run steam, and have fun doing it, and showing others how much fun it is.       That said.

I want everyone to go home with as many eyes, teeth and other various body parts as the came with.   Poor practice gets my attention.

I especially don't want to see the wondrous eyes of a child hurt by a bad joint, or a broken bit even on a small boiler.  That's my own personal nightmare scenario.

So lets be safe, and get the facts.    There are a good deal of small boilers on this site that run and make steam a plenty.   Some have been designed by pro's who really do know how to design and build a hobby boiler.     

ok......now   nuf said.

Dave


Hi Dave,

Sorry that I have in any way caused you so much grief. My aim in life ( what little time I do have left ) surely is not to upset anyone for any reason.

I shared my build on MY Boiler here on MEM because several members asked that I do so.

I had over forty years designing and engineering for both the petrochemical and the marine industry with a stellar reputation. I am approved and certified by both the United States Coast Guard ( mic number IAT ) and the American Bureau of Shipping.

If you consider my build and information here as "poor practice" then delete the post.

Sorry that you did not have the time to PM me if I was causing a problem.

Again, I do apologize to you and everyone else that I have offended in any form or fashion.

I will withdraw my offer of free plans on this unit.

You have a wonderful day now.

Thomas

And my aim in life is not to bring insult , or pain or anguish.   If I've done that, I apologize.     I want you to be safe.    That's it.   Nothing more.   

Dave   
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Online Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2017, 03:04:20 AM »
Thomas, you have been presenting an interesting boiler design and I appreciate your efforts and preparedness to share your journey with us, so please continue with your work, I would have liked to see the plans.

Boiler design, especially in the model community has always been ultra-conservative and reactionary when it comes to challenging the dominant ideology or paradigms. In Australia builders of gauge one boilers suffered some unnecessary interference from the model code masters who imposed a sub-miniature boiler code, legally binding. Some experienced builders objected and were publicly criticised, but their experiments have shown the code writers were not up to the game. Some attempts at destructive testing of little boilers failed, they did not blow up or otherwise fail at enormous pressures, e.g. 1000psi. Also of late, a low crown type loco boiler has been built in 7/8ths scale principally for coal burning and it has shown its merits, one merit, demonstrated practically, that running it dry without any attempt to pull the fire does not overheat the materials or endanger the integrity of the boiler, the design was also analysed by computer modelling and again proved sound. I understand the code is now going to be re-written. Please note; the above is an illustration of my argument, it is an overly brief summary, not intended to 'guide' a builder and in no way supports BAD PRACTICE, design wise or in workmanship.

So Thomas, you are presenting something challenging to the thinking of many people who I suspect may not be privy to all your thinking and all the data you are using. Of course I am assuming you are competent and diligent, as I expect most of the questioners of your ideas are, but there should be no accusations of poor practice unless it is proven to be the case and there is a need to be aware even proven formulae might need to be interpreted or adapted to accomodate a design that might not fit too neatly. Experimentation and challenging tribal thinking is what got us to where we are in the modern world. There is no reason why such challenging should not occur in the model world or be freely communicated. Please continue with your work so we may see the results and learn. Regards, Paul Gough.



Thank you Paul, you are a true gentleman.
Have a great day,
Thomas

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2017, 07:44:05 AM »
Regarding the stress figures use, I believe the lower figure takes into account temperature. As temp goes up the figure comes down, on the other side of that spreadsheet is the calcs for copper and that and states the temp.

Like Dave I try to offer constructive critisisum but am aware that it may not always come over that way which is why I was glad that someone else raised the question again.

I would still like to see what calcs were used for flat surfaces, if they come out OK for these raised pressures now being talked about then that is fine.

J

Online Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2017, 03:10:12 PM »
Hello Paul,

When I read you reply it brought to mind an article that I had read some time ago that reinforces exactly what you pointed out about “actual results” v “code results”. As you know the Boiler Codes are outlined in the ASME Section VIII Division I and as a member of ASME I do accept and follow closely to the Code. However I am aware that most of the Codes were conceived and written from 1980's and previous years, and in some cases many years ago. With the advent of the computer and CAD programs, new information, facts and results from many ongoing studies are producing causes to upgrade and change many of the Code rules and formulas.

I was pretty sure that I had saved the above mentioned article and I am attaching a pdf copy of it below. You will see that multiple math equations were used to examine just about every element for the testing of the material used. The net result was an “actual boiler” will in fact withstand a much greater internal pressure than stated in the “code results” / using the Code Formula.

To keep this reply as short as possible I will cut right to the chase.

Here are the “values” they used in the Study:
Size = 330x370x125mm (12.99" x 14.57" x 4.92")
Wall thickness = 3mm (.118")
Material grade = SA-516, Gr.70 (48,000psi)
Safety Factor = 1.5
Poisson’s ratio = 0.3

Now what I find most interesting is (see the two formulas below) if you insert their “values” into one of the formulas (see Note-2) that I used on my Boiler, you will find this result; a working pressure of 35.5407psi. My formula is a bit more conservative at 35.5407psi where their Study reached 40psi with no failure.

Now if you adjust the Poisson’s ratio on my Boiler ( I had used a value of .29 ) up to .30 which will increase the allowable internal pressure up a bit more, again I was conservative. (See Note-1)

Again make a big adjustment to my original value ( here I was very conservative and used 29,000 psi for the yield ) up to 46,000 psi which is the rating for ASTM A500b which is the grade of tube that I used. (See Note-1) Making these adjustments to my original values show that I could use 66.66psi as the safe working pressure with a 1.5 safety ratio. All my calculations are right on the numbers to meet the Code.

Paul I would like to thank you and the others again who have been so kind and really do appreciate the support on all my projects.

Have a really wonderful day,
Thomas

Link to pdf Study
https://sites.google.com/site/yeolesteamdude/home/new
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 03:13:30 PM by Ye-Ole Steam Dude »

Online Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2017, 07:01:03 PM »
Steam up dudes and dudets,

Hey everybody, spent four hours this morning in the shop running all the pressure and heat test on the completed Boiler (almost need to build and install a steam trap) and everything tested out 100% A-OK. I am attaching a video of some of the testing and showing the Boiler hooked up to the Controller.

Have a really great day, :LickLips: :D ;D :cheers:
Thomas



Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2017, 03:04:59 AM »
Thomas:

Don't know if you've already covered this or not, but I've got a couple of questions.

1) What are you using for a heating element?
2) How did you determine if that heating element would be large enough to supply the volume of steam you need at the pressure you want?

I've been kicking this idea around in my head for a while, and I've found information that will hopefully allow me to convert Lbs/hour of steam into Watts.  From this I SHOULD be able to determine the heater size needed to run a specified size of engine at a given RPM.  BUT, I don't have a lot of confidence in my calculations.  What can I say, I'm a EE, not an ME - I wrangle angry pixies for a living.

Don

Hi Don,

I have ordered a Camco 1000 watt screw in element ( has 1" thread ) which will provide plenty of continues steam at 20 psi. I have built similar units in the past with much larger volume of water ( over 2 gallons ) and used the same element, so I did not do any calculations for this smaller Boiler.

The Camco is a 120vac unit and I will control it with a 25A SSR via the Digital Controller. The Controller will be connected to the Boiler with a RTD that is inserted in the water at the same level as the element ( see my drawing ). I will be able to set both an "upper" and "lower" limit on the temperature so as to maintain a constant water temperature even as the water level ( volume ) drops. If the temp gets too high (my preset value) the unit will shut down and must be Reset before it can be started again. I will also have audible alarms ( not at the very first ) to give a warning before the temp reaches the preset value.

Thank you,
Thomas
Hi Thomas,  i have just seen your thread on this site and am wondering where one can source these elements and how much the Camco element is. I use the Radiospares cartridge heater that are about £40  !!  I don't know why i have not seen this thread before.  Looks like a very satisfactory set up  Will keep in touch......
Willy

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2017, 09:18:43 AM »
Thomas:

Don't know if you've already covered this or not, but I've got a couple of questions.

1) What are you using for a heating element?
2) How did you determine if that heating element would be large enough to supply the volume of steam you need at the pressure you want?

I've been kicking this idea around in my head for a while, and I've found information that will hopefully allow me to convert Lbs/hour of steam into Watts.  From this I SHOULD be able to determine the heater size needed to run a specified size of engine at a given RPM.  BUT, I don't have a lot of confidence in my calculations.  What can I say, I'm a EE, not an ME - I wrangle angry pixies for a living.

Don

Hi Don,

I have ordered a Camco 1000 watt screw in element ( has 1" thread ) which will provide plenty of continues steam at 20 psi. I have built similar units in the past with much larger volume of water ( over 2 gallons ) and used the same element, so I did not do any calculations for this smaller Boiler.

The Camco is a 120vac unit and I will control it with a 25A SSR via the Digital Controller. The Controller will be connected to the Boiler with a RTD that is inserted in the water at the same level as the element ( see my drawing ). I will be able to set both an "upper" and "lower" limit on the temperature so as to maintain a constant water temperature even as the water level ( volume ) drops. If the temp gets too high (my preset value) the unit will shut down and must be Reset before it can be started again. I will also have audible alarms ( not at the very first ) to give a warning before the temp reaches the preset value.

Thank you,
Thomas
Hi Thomas,  i have just seen your thread on this site and am wondering where one can source these elements and how much the Camco element is. I use the Radiospares cartridge heater that are about £40  !!  I don't know why i have not seen this thread before.  Looks like a very satisfactory set up  Will keep in touch......
Willy


Hello Willy,

I purchased this Camco element from the local big box store (Lowe's) for $6.00+ but most plumbing stores also carry them. Of course they can be purchased on the internet and the price varies a lot and some offer free shipping. Brew supply stores offer them in stainless but are much higher. I think that the stainless unit starts at 1500 watt and I have used them and up to 5500 watt/230vac.

I used the 1000 watt because of the small volume of water that I am heating and because it is shorter in length than the 1500 watt. Camco does have a longer 1000 watt which is the same as the 1500. If you have trouble finding a source let me know and I will try and help.

Have a great day,
Thomas

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2017, 10:51:05 PM »
Hey everyone,

I put together a short video of photos showing construction of the Power Controller Unit for the Six-Sixteen Boiler.

Have a great day,
Thomas


Online Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2017, 06:31:13 PM »
Thomas, you have been presenting an interesting boiler design and I appreciate your efforts and preparedness to share your journey with us, so please continue with your work, I would have liked to see the plans.

 Regards, Paul Gough.


Hey Paul,

Just sent you a PM.

Have a great day,
Thomas

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2017, 02:49:42 PM »
Building a Steam Trap to mount on the Square Six-Sixteen Steam Boiler

Thomas


Offline crueby

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2017, 03:50:02 PM »
What does a steam trap do?

Online Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2017, 05:01:05 PM »
What does a steam trap do?

Hello Chris,

It helps to reduce the "wet steam" from going into an engine. In practice it "traps" the wet steam in the bottom and allows the "dry steam" to exit out the top port to the engine. The valve on the bottom can be opened from time to time (even while the engine is running) to discharge the accumulated water.

Your shovel project is looking fantastic.

Have a great day,
Thomas

Offline crueby

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Re: Help with fittings on a Boiler
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2017, 05:41:27 PM »
What does a steam trap do?

Hello Chris,

It helps to reduce the "wet steam" from going into an engine. In practice it "traps" the wet steam in the bottom and allows the "dry steam" to exit out the top port to the engine. The valve on the bottom can be opened from time to time (even while the engine is running) to discharge the accumulated water.

Your shovel project is looking fantastic.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Clever. Thanks!