Author Topic: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines  (Read 4843 times)

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« on: August 27, 2017, 09:46:09 AM »
Hi folks!

I would like to present you the "evolution" of my milling machine, which is actually a combination of two different machine parts:

But actually at the beginning, I had bought a centec 2A quite some time ago, which I intended to use as my first milling machine. But as it happenes pretty often, not everything goes as planned. I would have had to reproduce a gib for the z-axis. Well - the centec was waiting to be taken care of - and still is - because a while later, I could get a Deckel G1L (a pretty solid pantograph engraving machine) for only 200 bucks. I did not hesitate even a tiny second and bought that machine - which by the way would have been brought to the junkyard if it couldn't have been sold. 

So i first thought I would put the centec head on the Deckel G1L - but that would have meant that the Centec does not have a millinghead anymore.
After a bit of research, I found out that the high speed head of a Deckel Fp1 would fit perfectly for that machine. This resulted in driving to a dealer near munich to buy such a head in near new condition for 3 times as much as i had payd for the G1L (but absolutely worth it!)
The 3rd picture shows this milling head - without the beam that came with it (and will be used to mount it)

I found out that the geometry of the Machine is not the best anymore and so decided (after I had done this to my lathe) to overhaul the geometry by scraping too.
I started with the column: I could use a big surface plate at the place where my dad works for bluing up the parts.
The weight of the coulmn though was just at the limit of what I would try to do it that way. If the column had been bigger, I would have had to use a flat straight or something similar.

As you can see, the z-guides (or their flat surfaces) had been worn the most in the middle - which was where the machine had been moved around the most I guess.
Oh and probably, the ways didn't see a lot of oil during the machines life as an engraver - because the crossslide must have been used for adjustment of the position only.

I was pretty quick done with rough scraping - that's good since it means there is not too much wear  8) - and I started with finish scraping and counting bearing points.

On the last picture, you can see the finished surface - with no bluing compound though.

See you with the next part
Florian




« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 10:08:14 AM by Florian Eberhard »

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 03:35:51 PM »
The scraping was continued with all the other parts, including the t-slot table (that acutally was required to do the two bearing surfaced on the bottom side).
I also attached a picture of the adapter plate i fabricated to fit the milling head on top of the column. That was some kind of cast iron but the behaviour when scraping rather remembered me of ductile iron, the blade was pretty hard to push and quite some pressure was required otherwise the blade would have just slipped over surface, barely doing anything. But finally I finished and I could continue with the other parts.

I will not go into further detail about the scraping progress but let you have a look at the picutres I took during that process.

Florian
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 03:51:32 PM by Florian Eberhard »

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 08:54:40 PM »
For the further scraping process, there had to be done quite some measurment, to ensure on one side that the dovetails were parallel (which is crucial for a smooth operation of course) and also that all the axis of the milling machine were going to be square to each other.
I also made myself a straight edge with the required angle.
The fourth picture shows the finished surface of the x-y saddle and you may notice that there is some paper on the left. That paper makes it possible to see those blue points which - with no paper - cant even be seen if you are looking at them live (and not on a picture)

I also had to build a little measuring instrument to measure outside dovetail surfaces.
The last picture shows how complicated measuring can be, if you want to make sure that the milling head adapter is parallel to the millling table (which is not necessarily required but nice to have)

Cheers Florian
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 09:01:04 PM by Florian Eberhard »

Offline stvy

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2017, 07:59:25 AM »
Florian,

Nice work with the scraper. Are you only hand scraping or also using a BIAX?

From the look of your scraping someone taught you. Where/how did you learn?

I'd be most interested in picture of the tooling you used to make sure you get everything in alignment and square when working on the ways.

Thanks,
Steve

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2017, 08:56:26 PM »
Hi Steve
Thanks!

That was all hand-scraping, I didn't own a BIAX then. I guess I would have been a whole lot faster with a biax. On the other hand, I really practiced scraping pretty good which is not bad I think.
Actually I tought myself how to scrap, but by watching youtube videos and reading about it. And there may be some kind of talent in my hands for scraping.

Which tool do you actually mean? Or everything in general?

All the measuring and blueing  tools I used were:

- dial indicator
- indicator base
- surface plate (not my own but pretty big, i think it was around 1200x800 or so)
- granite square for indicating right angles
- straight edge (self-made, the angle was "only" made by milling it, it was not checked and therefore coud be slightly more or less than the nominal value)
- my self made width gage with a lever indicator

Regards,
Florian

« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 09:05:49 PM by Florian Eberhard »

Offline stvy

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2017, 02:39:16 PM »
Florian,

Well done. Certainly a lot of "elbow grease" needed with the scraping. Being in Switzerland did you do any pull scraping?

Your list of tooling is interesting and I see that you have put up pictures of all you used. I like your width gauge with level. Simple approaches are the best to ensure repeatable readings. As you say it is much easier if they wear is not so significant. I myself have a mill that I am scraping that is somewhat banana shaped!

Thanks,
Steve

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2017, 09:12:19 PM »
Hi Steve

I didn't do any pull scraping yet, although I got hands on two Agathon pull scrapers a while ago (but after I scraped my Deckel)
I want to try pull scraping at some time in the future - but at the moment there are other things on top of my list (at the moment I am still working on my cochrane boiler)

What kind of milling machine are you working on? If you don't mind, I would enjoy to see a thread about your machine!

I have attached some more pictures of my width gauge to show it a bit better. The gaps were made with a file to ensure that the gauge was not rocking over a (potential) high-spot.

Then after scraping, I decided that I wanted to reinforce the gooseneck of the column (which was required for an engraving machine). I took the column on a big milling machine and machined one side flat. Then I fitted a 12mm steel plate and a spacer block into the inside of the "U" and machined the other side plain.
I also had the column and the knee painted and i was (and still am) pretty happy with how it came out.

Florian

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2017, 12:59:30 PM »
Hi

The story goes on:

The machine didn't have any oil grooves since it was not intended for dynamic use but only for positioning. But as a milling machine, It will be used dynamically so I decided to make them.
I had to think about how to lubricate everything and where to put the lubrication nipples. I also drilled some channels to connect all those grooves but it finally worked pretty well and I can now lubricate all the ways through 6 (actually 4 but some are connected) lubrication nipples.

Another work to be done yet (and before milling the lubrication grooves!) was to scrap in the gibs. They are made from steel and scraping is pretty sticky and not easy going with these. But at some point also they were finshed and I could finally also machine their lubrication grooves - which I did on my lathe by the way.

Florian

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 08:24:58 PM »
I then started assembling the knee and found out that something went pretty firm towards the lower end of the z-axis. I first doubted my measuring of the dovetail - well if the sides were parallel or not. But that wasn't it. I found out that the threaded spindle of the z-axis was causing the problem: Since the knee moved closer to the column (because I scraped off some material from the column and from the knee aswell) the alignment between spindle and nut was not correct anymore. So I had fo find a fix for that.
Besides, I also made a little base to put the machine on. That base was equipped with machine feet, so I could level the machine.

And I also had to solve another Problem: When I disassembled the X-Axis, I broke one of the bearing supports of the feedscrew (they are made from cast iron). My plan is now to only replace the flange of that bearing support and not the bearing part.  However, thats gonna come with the next update.

Florian

Offline stvy

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 01:22:20 PM »
Florian,

I only know how to push scrape. one day I will make a pull scraper or perhaps get lucky second hand. It would be interesting to see your commercial ones to see the design.

As a learning project I am scraping a bridgeport series 1 J head. It was very very worn. After I took it apart I found out why, the one shot oiler system was not delivering oil to a few critical locations. It was very interesting to see the effects of no oil versus oil. The lesson is make sure your ways are well oiled. The other lesson is that I am struggling to do the work due to the size of the castings versus the limited space I have to work in.

Progress on the major castings is as follows:

Table -- I am getting close to having the table finish rough scraped in.It was twisted and worn on the top. I peened it and got out 0.004" of droop to 0.002" without having to remove any metal.
Saddle -- Scraped in. Quite a lot of material has been removed from the badly worn underside due to no lubrrication on 3 out of the 4 bearing pads. I will most likely use turcite on the under side to bring it back up to dimension. I'll save that job until I am re-assembling it.
Knee - not started. The top was chromed and is fine, the back is like a banana -- no oil.
Column - not started. There is a section with major wear and that is from the lack of lubrication at the back of the knee.

I had no tools to do the job when I started it and had never scraped anything before. So its been a lot of learning and tool making to be able to do the job. I now have a nice set of camel back straight edges including straight  and dovetail type, and some nice pieces of granite and cast iron surface plate and less money.  :thinking: I am just about to start to scrape in an old cast iron surface plate that is just big enough to take prints on the back of the knee and just small enough that I can lift it! I've purchased the tooling second hand and sometimes I've waited a long time to get what I needed at an acceptable price. So the project has taken much much longer than it might have.

It's been a very interesting journey but I am only doing it part time in the winters and have done a lathe rebuild in-between starting the bridgeport and getting to where I am now with it. I really need to knuckle down and do it. It has been much harder to do because it was so badly worn. In hindsight I should have got all the major castings ground and then just scraped for bearing. I'd have been finished long ago. When you have little to work from that isn't very worn it is less easy.


Steve

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2017, 09:57:21 AM »
Hi Steve

Well that seems to be a nice project and for sure needs a lot of patience to keep going. But as you finished, you will be extremely lucky and pleased with what can be achieved. Also if it did cost you a lot time and money - more as if you had someone do it for you - it still will be a priceless experience! So I wish you good luck and a lot of energy until you get it done!

Meanwhile, I will continue the story of my machine:
I had to think about a solution and it took me quite a while until I came up with this:
I first reduced the outer diameter of the nut on the lathe and then machined a ring to hold the nut. That Ring was screwed on top of that stub which carried the nut.
To align the nut, I first mounted the ring and sligthly tightened the screws so the ring could be moved with enough force. Then I assembled the knee and moved it down to its lowest position (which by the way was not affected by that ring because the z-axis dovetails end was reached before the knee would touch the nut and now I still can bove a bit below with the knee)
After the nut had aligned itself, I removed the knee again and finished tightening the screws of the ring. The result is pretty good, I can't feel any increasing resistance anmyore.

Then I started with that broken bearing support. I first cut off the flange with a hacksaw, then machined a thread onto it on the lathe. The part was by the way clamped with an expanding mandrel. The replacement flange was made from a piece of cast Iron which first was machined on both sides. It was clamped onto a faceplate to drill and machine the diameter to the required core diameter and cut the thread.

To be continued right away...
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 11:21:29 AM by Florian Eberhard »

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2017, 11:08:50 AM »
I first wanted to cut off the edges of the new flange of that bearing support to get it looking like the old one. But I was too lazy and finally only rounded it and chamfered the edge with a file.
Well - this was the last missing piece and I started to assemble the machine. The spindle of the milling head had been laying around for quite a while when I bought it. Because I wanted it to last as long as possible, I decided to disassemble it, replace the bearing grease and put it back again. I used a special bearing grease (Klüber Isoflex nbu 15) which is extremely espensive (50 grams cost around 60 bucks!!) but seems to be worth it according to some other people that told me about it. With the half-assembled head on the machine, I think it really "deserves" the description FP0 as it clearly reminds me on a Fp1 milling machine. With the motor added, the machine was almost complete.
I had to make a drawbar for the tools I had already bought, you can see the original (blacknened) drawbar and the material for the new one on the milling table.

To be continued soon (tonight maybe)
Regards Florian
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 11:20:42 AM by Florian Eberhard »

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2017, 08:10:25 PM »
Nice result so far  :ThumbsUp: but the end verdict will be, how it is to use (I will be very surprised if you isn't happy though)  :)

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2017, 10:21:28 AM »
Hi Per

Thank you! Since the work on my milling machine has been finished a while ago, i can already tell you that the machine is really nice to use and it is easy to work really precisely with it. And the best featue of it is the quill in the milling head! I would never want to miss that.

The drawbar was machined in the lathe, first using a revolving center and then the steady rest to cut the M16 thread on the lower end. Pretty much like the old one but with a different thread on the bottom (the old one had an inside thread for the Deckel toolholders, which is a special sawtooth thread)
Then I made some clamps for my little pull-down vice (chinese) which I had for quite a while. But it was acutally a little too small and so I got me another vice. And with it came four new clamps which were machined on this milling machine. The roughing endmill by the way is a 16mm diameter and I was taking a 3mm deep cut. That worked without vibrations! So I am pretty happy with the machine up to now.

Florian


Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2017, 01:49:54 PM »
Hi again!

I was using my milling machine with a temporary vfd installation first (for half a year in about), the vfd was shared for the lathe and the milling machine.
But that was not too comfortable since I always had to unplug the not used machine and plug in the other one.
So I bought another vfd for my milling machine and started making its own control cabinet and controls.
After I had the machine running with its own electronics, I used it for another year to find out that the original motor on the milling head was not very strong (only a 2-phase 550 watt motor). So I decided to put on another motor - which I could pull out of an old machine at work which was going to be dumped.
That was a 0.75kw 4-phase motor, so the torque should be plenty enough then. But I had to replace the motor mounting plate. So I made a new one from aluminium. The motor was disassembled for cleaning and also because I had to cut off some of the flange to fit the new mounting plate.
And the motor fits pretty well! It almost looks like it had been there forever.

I also wanted to replace the drive beld which was rattling quite a lot at certain speeds (and causing vibrations)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 01:56:54 PM by Florian Eberhard »

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: Florian's Deckel "FP0" - a combination of two machines
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2017, 02:20:14 PM »
So the new belt which is going to be a v-ribbed belt requires new belt pulleys on the motor and the spindle aswell. The drive will have two ratios, so the pulleys will have two diamteters too.
After some trying out and calculating, I had the dimensions for the pulleys and also a belt that would fit.

I started with the motor pulley, for which I had a piece of aluminium laying around. That piece was clamped in the four jaw independent chuck (which is big enough for this job) and then I machined the step. I flipped it around and machined the bore and the matching diameter for the hub which I will make from steel. (before flipping it I drilled the four holes)
Then I made a hub from steel, which is going to be on the motor shaft. That hub was also turned around and then the matching diameter for the aluminium wheel was machined and the hub was bored out.
The pulley was mounted onto the hub (which was still clamped) and finish machined on the outside. This should result in minimal runout and therefore minimal unbalanced mass.
In the same setup, I finally also machined the belt grooves. And this is it, the finished motor pulley, first for itself and then on the motor, with the belt hanging around it already.

Cheers Florian




 

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