Author Topic: Val, What does it do?  (Read 5439 times)

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Val, What does it do?
« on: August 13, 2017, 12:16:31 AM »
Hi,
Even in the little time I've had Val running a number of people have asked me what does it do? And it appears that looking perty ain't enough. So after some thought It occurred to me, what if I set up a generator to run a computer fan to cool it. But the million dollar question is, how do I do that? I know PM Research sells a 12 volt generator, would that work to power the fan? Would I need a lot of other stuff & if so what? Any suggestions would be great. I could make something and the base isn't the final iteration so room isn't an issue. And if it could run more than the fan so much the better.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Ian S C

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1065
  • Stirling Engine Maker Darfield Canterbury N Z
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2017, 11:13:39 AM »
Art, I'v tried many different types of generators and alternators on my hot air motors, here is one of my early motors with a selection of them.  On the belt is a 35v DC motor from ? a printer, I normally try to run it at 12v, but it will run up to 18v if I don't watch it.
In the foreground (L-R) 12v DC motor ex HP printer. A modified 230v AC shaded pole motor (6 pole), the squirrel cage armature is replaced with a permanent magnetic one, AC out put.
Second row (L-R), inside the bit of black painted steel tube is the 200v motor from a kitchen stick mixer-- DC out put. To the right is a much modified Sturmy Archer hub dynamo that I modified to use on a wind turbine AC out put, about 8v at 120 rpm.
A small DC motor is your best bet, pick one that has reasonably low revs, its no use if you want 12v, and the motor you have is rated 12v at 20,000rpm, look for one that does 5000rpm or less, because it needs to be spun up to at least that.
Ian S C
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:44:30 AM by Ian S C »

Offline Noitoen

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 103
  • Set˙bal - Portugal
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2017, 05:13:55 PM »
Bicycle hub generator is easy to modify but with ac output.

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2017, 12:05:58 AM »
Ian & Noitoen,
Thanks for your input. I will probably look for some sort of dc motor. I will check at the Badger Steam & Gas show next weekend cause there's usually a guy there who has a parallel twin set up to fire on a 180 degree crank, and he is doing this already and running a computer fan. Can the fan run directly from the generator or does it need some intermediary electronics equipment?
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Ian S C

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1065
  • Stirling Engine Maker Darfield Canterbury N Z
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2017, 11:24:09 AM »
Any computer fan that I have used are DC and require no extra circuitry, but they don't like too much over voltage.  I try to select one with the lowest amp rating so I can run a radio as well. Here's a little one with a radio on it.
If you use an alternator, it's no great deal to put a diode in the line, my supplies normally have a bridge diode and an electrolytic capacitor.  The next one will have a voltage regulator, an M 317, so I can adjust the voltage.  Ian S C
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 11:30:15 AM by Ian S C »

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2017, 12:56:28 PM »
Ian,
I think the radio would be hard to hear over Val maybe lights instead.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Roger B

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3977
  • Switzerland
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 01:06:34 PM »
I have used  hobby shop electric motors as loads and starter motors, details attached. The smaller one is used on my 3cc vertical engine, directly driven. The larger one is used on my 25cc horizontal engine with a 4-1 step up drive.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f941X4lxYF8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f941X4lxYF8</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww4ZdcA_puA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww4ZdcA_puA</a>
Best regards

Roger

Offline Perry

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 194
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 07:23:58 PM »
Hello Art, nice engine indeed and would be fun to watch it doing something. Apart of hooking an generator to produce electricity, you may consider also purely mechanical devices to be driven as well.
What about pencil sharpener ? Would be cool and would give a perfect answer to that question what does it do :)

My stirling engine that I'm currently playing with don't have enough power to drive one but your Val should cope with it in ease with the right gearing.






« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 08:21:03 PM by Perry »

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 11:51:46 PM »
Roger,
Thanks for helping out. I am not very electronically minded. I can read volts, amps, ohms on a vom. Don't quite follow the efficiency part of the figures. I assume if it turns real lumpy like my Kyosho, le mans 360pt it isn't very efficient at all. I do have a couple printer motors but don't know if they are ac or dc. Is there any way to tell? besides hoping the printer (still laying around at work) states which and what voltage.
Perry,
The pencil sharpener is a novel idea, but I don't think I'm ready for that quite yet. Thanks for your input.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline tvoght

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 923
  • Indiana
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2017, 12:13:55 AM »
Hello Art, nice engine indeed and would be fun to watch it doing something. Apart of hooking an generator to produce electricity, you may consider also purely mechanical devices to be driven as well.
What about pencil sharpener ? Would be cool and would give a perfect answer to that question what does it do :)

My stirling engine that I'm currently playing with don't have enough power to drive one but your Val should cope with it in ease with the right gearing.

I feel like folks are reading my mind. I had been thinking for a while about belting a pencil sharpener up to Robby, my Roberts mechanism engine. Then I was talking to a fellow at NAMES in April who mentioned that he had just such a rig in his home office! Nothing new under the sun, I guess.

--Tim

Offline Hugh Currin

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 473
  • Klamath Falls, Oregon, USA
    • www.currin.us
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2017, 01:07:05 AM »
You could always put VAL on a bicycle.

Or how about a blender. Kinda like this but more sophisticated.

Could VAL power a 7x14 lathe? Or small bench top mill?

A cheese grater, or maybe a wine bottle cork puller? Pasta maker?

More fun!

Hugh
Hugh

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2017, 02:34:25 AM »
Hugh,
The blender bit reminds me of an episode of Top Gear, in which they were lamenting the demise of the V8. What are we gonna do with all these obsolete Corvette V8's. Ah yes make an industrial strength blender. :mischief:  I'm afraid to break every ones bubble but I can still stall it with my thumb and index finger. On the bike I think I am more confident in the power of my legs. I may slow down up hill but I won't stall. :lolb:
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Roger B

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3977
  • Switzerland
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2017, 01:31:41 PM »
I do have a couple printer motors but don't know if they are ac or dc. Is there any way to tell? besides hoping the printer (still laying around at work) states which and what voltage.
The easiest way to see if they will be suitable to use as generators for your engine is to drive them at a known speed with a lathe or drill and measure what voltage appears at the connections. You will know if it is AC or DC and what voltage for a given speed.
Best regards

Roger

Offline Ian S C

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1065
  • Stirling Engine Maker Darfield Canterbury N Z
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2017, 01:42:53 PM »
Years ago I put the motor in the above photo on a little trolley with a friction drive to one of the wheels, put the gas cylinder on board, and let it drive it's self 100M down the street to a friends place, then back home. The drive was a 1" rubber roller on a 16" bicycle wheel.
The motor is based on James G. Rizzo's Dyna.  It's stripped down at the moment, the stainless steel displacer rod is getting quite worn where it slides in the Teflon bush through the piston(it's a BETA motor).
Ian S C

Offline Brendon M

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Melbourne, Australia
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 08:53:39 AM »
I have the long term goal of building an engine which could drive my hand powered coffee grinder :)
(This signature intentionally left blank)

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2017, 02:59:53 AM »
Brendon,
I must admit that I used to pull my coffee out of the freezer and grind it but since then apparently I've gotten lazy and grind it at the store. I did see a video of someone running a ice cream churn with a hit & miss. I think when I find the second of the two electric motors from the dead printer I will power the one and see if the other will run. And check the voltage at a known rpm like someone suggested.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Ian S C

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1065
  • Stirling Engine Maker Darfield Canterbury N Z
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2017, 05:15:46 AM »
one year I was taking Dyna to a show, and to give it something to doI made a winch for it, we hooked the line onto a full twenty litre water container and dragged it10 meters across our display site at the show, then set up some shearlegs, and lifted it 3 meters.  The motor will do a lot if the gearing is low enough.
Some have used them to turn a spit on the barba que.
Ian S C

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 02:43:45 AM »
Hi everyone,
I am going to resurrect this topic despite the fact that it has been more than 120 days. I have worked on the brown stuff (walnut), as well as having a friends son who works at a wood working shop. So this has gotten me motivated to move forward with this.

The electric motor I have salvaged out of a scrap printer. I checked the speed with my SW hand tachometer at 1700'ish RPM was 39-41 volts. That's to much for a computer fan 5 or 12 volts. Would appropriate pulleys reduce the voltage or do I need something else. Like a voltage regulator and if so how do I make that, or can I buy something that would do the job? Any suggestions?
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Ian S C

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1065
  • Stirling Engine Maker Darfield Canterbury N Z
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 10:35:42 AM »
Art K, is that 39/41 volt AC or DC?  What ever, I think the best thing is to make up a voltage regulator, use a LM 315K in a TO-3 case, with this you can adjust the voltage, if you input is AC you will need to rectify it.
Ian S C

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1400
  • S°ften - Denmark
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2018, 11:25:30 AM »
The alternators on all my four stroke motorcycles are about 90Vac no load for a 12Vdc system ...!!!!

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 11:59:57 AM »
Ian,
I assumed it was dc, the reasoning was that the ac motor wouldn't put out voltage. I will see if the voltmeter reads ac or dc. To be honest I had the vom clips on the motor, and was holding both the driving & driven using an O-ring as a belt. I did notice it was reading - so swapped the clips around to get +. Is the lm317 the same, when I googled lm315 It came up with the 317?
Dave,
It was an HP printer and yes there were # on it I will check after I get home from work.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Mosey

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1584
  • Rosemont, New Jersey, USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 02:11:17 PM »
Didn't there used to be a lot of guys building beer can crushers? Then the problem would be where are going to get enough empty beer cans? Or, is that not a problem?
Mosey  :old:

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1400
  • S°ften - Denmark
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 09:31:30 PM »
No the LM317 isn't the same but a very good one too - but beware - not one of those can handle more than some 36Vdc  :zap:

Best wishes

Per

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 02:40:39 AM »
Per,
Thanks I actually discovered I was using Duck duck Go and when I changed to Google came up with a totally different search. I cant even find the same stuff I was looking at before work this morning. The printer motor I have is "HP Mabuchi C9000‑60005 RD530329Printer DC Stepper Motor" All I could find online was replacement motors on ebay and couldn't find any specs for it at all.
Ian,
Quote
I think the best thing is to make up a voltage regulator, use a LM 315K in a TO-3 case, with this you can adjust the voltage, if you input is AC you will need to rectify it.
The LM315 I found was a 3 pin chip. In found a description of the TO-3 on Wikipedia.
But being electronically deficient what do I do with them? The LM 315 acts as a voltage regulator what does the TO-3 do? or is the TO-3 just a case to mount the LM315 chip. Do you have some sort of wiring diagram of what I would need to run say a large computer fan "as a cooling fan"and maybe a few lights maybe LED's. I did figure from what I did find online that it is a dc stepper motor couldn't find the voltage though.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Bluechip

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 802
  • Derbyshire
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 07:15:24 AM »
Hi Art

 IIRC  T.O. stands for 'Transistor Outline' which, as you have found, is the mechanical package for the device. TO-3 is just one of them.

Umpty zillion of variations   :thinking:

Fill your boots ....

www.bing.com/images/search?q=Transistor+Package+Types&FORM=IDMHDL

D.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 07:22:05 AM by Bluechip »

Offline Bluechip

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 802
  • Derbyshire
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 08:01:36 AM »
Does it look anything like this?

www.ebay.com/itm/222454346155?item=222454346155&rmvSB=true

ie.  Just 2 wires poking out?

If so it's just a permanent magnet DC motor. Not a Stepper Motor at all ...  :headscratch:

There will be a DC output. The voltage will be more or less proportional to RPM.  If you whizz it round the other way the polarity will reverse.

I assume you just have the meter across the output?  The voltage will drop somewhat if you put a load on it.

Got a 12V 21W car lamp / bulb ?   Try that. Wind the revs up slowly and measure the volts. If it doesn't do much, the lamp only glows a bit reddish etc. then try it with a 12V festoon lamp instead, the ones often fitted to inside lights in a car, contacts at each end.

There are a lot of that generic sort of motor kicking about, what you get out of them as a generator is a lottery, but you'll get something ... might not be all that useful though ..  :D

What do you intend to run on it anyway?

Dave


« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 08:17:12 AM by Bluechip »

Offline Ian S C

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1065
  • Stirling Engine Maker Darfield Canterbury N Z
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 09:35:23 AM »
I use a number of motors as generators and alternators, a good one is a small 12V DC motor with fairly low speed(probably around 5000rpm), as found in the likes of printers, VHS recorders.
Ian S C

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2018, 11:46:35 AM »
Dave,
Yes it looks like that, two wires and the white pulley. I'll try a light of some sort. I was driving it with an electric motor so the rpm was probably around 1700 rpm. To cold outside to run it on Val quite yet.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2018, 04:25:35 PM »
There is a remarkable lack of information on the internet about this electric motor. Mabuchi HP C9000-60005 It does appear to be a 12-18v motor but that is all I can find, no rpm, amps etc. If I was reading 38v does that mean the rpm was to high and it needs to spin slower?
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Bluechip

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 802
  • Derbyshire
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2018, 04:48:28 PM »
There is a remarkable lack of information on the internet about this electric motor. Mabuchi HP C9000-60005 It does appear to be a 12-18v motor but that is all I can find, no rpm, amps etc. If I was reading 38v does that mean the rpm was to high and it needs to spin slower?
Art

In a word, yes.

As Admiral_DK says an unloaded and uncontrolled generator will output roughly proportional to the rpm.

I have had in excess of 70V DC from a Miller 6V dynamo. This was with 6V connected to the field winding. It will just keep going up as the revs. rise.

Yours is a permanent magnet motor. It will do the same.  It's what they do ...

Did you try loading it? What happened to the output volts?

Dave

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2018, 07:58:22 PM »
Dave,
No I have not tried loading it. That would mean making up some sort of fixture to mount the two of them and finding a load. I think I have two of these so I could set it up to run the other, granted the shop gnomes haven't stolen it and hid it. I will try to work on this later, or tomorrow.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Val, What does it do?
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2018, 12:03:17 AM »
Ok I tried a taillight that works then it was dimly lighting the 12volt bulb and the VOM read 2-3 volts. Not a very good setup but it did prove the load dropped the voltage output.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King