Author Topic: My boss is buying me a new toy  (Read 9875 times)

Offline steamer

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My boss is buying me a new toy
« on: August 10, 2017, 01:29:40 AM »
https://www.tormach.com/product-pcnc-440.html

Quite impressive!....I'm learning CAM as we speak....


Dave

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Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2017, 01:35:10 AM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNNFjNyeOYM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNNFjNyeOYM</a>
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Offline Ye-Ole Steam Dude

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2017, 01:54:22 AM »

What a beautiful piece of equipment. No limit to what you can build now.

Thomas
Thomas

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2017, 01:58:39 AM »
Does it stay at work or at home Dave?

Bill

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2017, 01:59:03 AM »
Just time......he's buying it for prototypes....not engines....

Dave
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Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2017, 01:59:29 AM »
Does it stay at work or at home Dave?

Bill


it stays at work...... :-[
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Offline kvom

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2017, 02:58:49 AM »
I thought 'boss' was the wife.  My bad.   :shrug:

Offline Art K

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2017, 03:15:24 AM »
Dave,
I think you'll like it. Especially what you can do on it, And the boss paying for software updates.
Art
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2017, 07:36:29 AM »
Will you get the chance to practice your CNC skills during lunch breaks :naughty:

Offline mikemill

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2017, 09:20:46 AM »
Dave
If you have not used a CNC mill before your in for a lot of fun. Quite simply they are the most amazing machine tools ever conceived.
Beware of the G code G0 rapid move it catches out everybody by crashing into work clamps!!!!
Good luck

Mike

Offline Vixen

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2017, 10:33:14 AM »
Hi Dave,

Well done! You finally convinced your boss and he bought you the machine of your dreams.

Now you only have to master the new beast and that only takes time and practice.

As mikemill says 'beware of G0 rapid moves'. I would use the controls which reduce the feed rates. Keep the fast move feed rate low to start with, stay within your reaction time to reach the 'Pause' button. You can speed up the fast moves when you are comfortable with the machine and the program.

Mike
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Offline Tennessee Whiskey

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2017, 10:38:09 AM »
Well, looks like you will be wanting to go to work now. 8). Nice score man. Go ahead and check out the NYCNC channel on YouTube and catch the Tormach enthusiasm from Saunders; Lord knows he's loaded with it. Tell everybody hey.

Cletus

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2017, 11:15:29 AM »
I spent two lengthy stints designing CNC machine tools at two different companies, but I've only used CNC twice, and never really got into programing or CAM.

WE're getting a 1 year license for Autodesk Fusion 360 CAM for free and I've been getting my head wrapped around that currently

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2017, 11:17:21 AM »
If this works out well, I' just might have to get me one of these!.....


10 x 6 x 10 work envelope.   Not bad!....

The price is far more affordable than you would think....like $10K....ready to run with tooling.

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
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Offline Vixen

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2017, 11:20:26 AM »
Dave,

Don't tease me. Bet the shipping costs to the UK would be a killer.

Mike
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 11:24:00 AM by Vixen »
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

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Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 11:25:49 AM »
I'm sure you're right Mike....

American company, designed here, made in China, including scraping, and shipped back and assembled here.   

Weird how that works....

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 11:38:10 AM »
Dave,

Don't tease me. Bet the shipping costs to the UK would be a killer.


There is at least one UK member of this forum with a Tormach and a few more over on ME forum, maybe it's not so bad or they have deep pockets?

Offline Tennessee Whiskey

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 11:39:51 AM »
I think they may have a UK distribution source

Cletus

Offline Jasonb

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2017, 11:41:40 AM »
As far as I know they were all imported individually via a shipping agent

Offline philjoe5

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2017, 12:31:10 PM »
Dave,
Have fun with the Tormach.  Our makerspace is getting this model:


https://www.tormach.com/product_pcnc_1100.html

sometime this fall.  One of our guys went to their training course in Wisconsin.  It was very well done.  Now he's going to set up training for us newbies.

Cheers,
Phil
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.  - Mark Twain

Offline Vixen

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2017, 12:59:02 PM »
Quote
There is at least one UK member of this forum with a Tormach and a few more over on ME forum, maybe it's not so bad or they have deep pockets?

I think it may be deep pockets for those who want one enough

Like they say 'If you need to ask the price, you cannot afford one'

Just dreaming

Mike
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

Offline Hugh Currin

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2017, 03:43:59 PM »
If this works out well, I' just might have to get me one of these!.....

10 x 6 x 10 work envelope.   Not bad!....

The price is far more affordable than you would think....like $10K....ready to run with tooling.

Dave

Dave:

Looks like you have a PCNC 440? Is this instead of the Sherline/Taig CNC equipment you were considering? For commercial use I think this is a much better choice, though I haven't seen one in person. Keep us updated with progress.

Thanks.

Hugh
Hugh

Offline kvom

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2017, 03:50:02 PM »
I spent two lengthy stints designing CNC machine tools at two different companies, but I've only used CNC twice, and never really got into programing or CAM.

WE're getting a 1 year license for Autodesk Fusion 360 CAM for free and I've been getting my head wrapped around that currently

Dave

That's actually two separate skills to master.  The first is the parametric 3D to model the part.  Then CAM to machine it. 

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2017, 07:55:33 PM »
Cad I have 30 years doing.    CAM.....not so much
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Offline b.lindsey

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 08:12:01 PM »
Did some looking around their site this morning Dave, impressive little machine!!  Also like the little slant bed lathe.  Looking forward to seeing what your experience is like once the 440 arrives and is set up.

Bill

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2017, 11:32:19 PM »
If this works out well, I' just might have to get me one of these!.....

10 x 6 x 10 work envelope.   Not bad!....

The price is far more affordable than you would think....like $10K....ready to run with tooling.

Dave

Dave:

Looks like you have a PCNC 440? Is this instead of the Sherline/Taig CNC equipment you were considering? For commercial use I think this is a much better choice, though I haven't seen one in person. Keep us updated with progress.

Thanks.

Hugh

Yes  I did some research and followed your advice.    This is SOOOO much more machine.      For the lathe, I just picked up a Derbyshire 750.    That'll do the trick.

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 11:35:57 PM »

Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #20 on: Today at 07:59:02 »

Quote
Modify
Remove
Split Topic
Quote from: Jasonb on Today at 06:38:10
Quote
There is at least one UK member of this forum with a Tormach and a few more over on ME forum, maybe it's not so bad or they have deep pockets?



I think it may be deep pockets for those who want one enough

Like they say 'If you need to ask the price, you cannot afford one'

Just dreaming

Mike









I don't know about exchange or taxes.    but

Base machine
Vise
base
computer and control software with conversational interface
tooling
mist coolant system
power draw bar
basic cutter set
4th axis compatible.    about to be released
chip tray
cabling
Delivery to the loading dock
Standard 10,000 rpm spindle
1 year free license for a industrial grade CAM software.   Already installed.

$10.3 K

I mean set it up and go!   

THAT is cheap.....
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
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Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 11:39:03 PM »
You could do 5-10 small job shop jobs on this machine and it would be paid for.....no question

Then it's yours


Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2017, 12:41:36 AM »
Well it's on the wish list but no place to put one now. Will be interested to see how it looks/works/holds up over time. Good that your boss can be the guinea pig with his funds  ;)

Bill

Offline Walsheng

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2017, 01:13:56 AM »
I have the 1100 and have been running it for just over 2 years.  One of the nice things about the 440 is the 10K spindle speed (1100 only goes to 5K.)  But I was able to cut some .040" slots .040" deep in 303 stainless with a 1/32" ball end mill at 5,000 rpm.  Piece of cake and it took all of 4 minutes.
I will be interested on your learning curve with Fusion 360.  I got the Sprutcam sold by Tormach, which is Russian translated (sort of) into English.  Made for a pretty good challenge on top of learning CAM.

John

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2017, 01:52:48 AM »
I have the 1100 and have been running it for just over 2 years.  One of the nice things about the 440 is the 10K spindle speed (1100 only goes to 5K.)  But I was able to cut some .040" slots .040" deep in 303 stainless with a 1/32" ball end mill at 5,000 rpm.  Piece of cake and it took all of 4 minutes.
I will be interested on your learning curve with Fusion 360.  I got the Sprutcam sold by Tormach, which is Russian translated (sort of) into English.  Made for a pretty good challenge on top of learning CAM.

John

it's not bad thus far...I've got some tool paths running....I just haven't really thought about parts in terms of CAM....just set up...so I'm getting those two halves of my brain to start talking to each other....and fast!   Machine will be here in about a week!
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Jasonb

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2017, 07:40:27 AM »
The people I mentioned above have made up simple brackets so a high speed spindle like a Kress can be mounted at the side of the main spindle and used with small cutters, machine can run the program much faster with the cutter at its optimum speed. One was on a 1100 machine, not sure what the other is without looking back, both have 4th axis

Offline kvom

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2017, 02:41:12 PM »
The people I mentioned above have made up simple brackets so a high speed spindle like a Kress can be mounted at the side of the main spindle and used with small cutters, machine can run the program much faster with the cutter at its optimum speed. One was on a 1100 machine, not sure what the other is without looking back, both have 4th axis

I did the same:  http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,7312.0.html

My machine is a bit beefier than either Tormach model, but as a model maker I run very modest cuts.  I also use Solidworks instead of Fusion for modeling, and do the CAM work with CamBam.  I'm not sure how Fusion is for F&S calculations.  I use GWizard and rarely break tools.

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2017, 04:39:45 PM »
We use Solidworks for cad and fusion because a 1 year licence came free with the machine.
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
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Offline Dave Otto

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2017, 04:56:30 PM »
I'm curious to see how this works out for you Dave; sometime between now and when I retire I would like to add a new CNC to the home shop. I get along with my converted knee mill but it does have it's limitations.
Can you tell us what type of work you will be doing with the Tomach, or is it top secret?

Dave

Offline Walsheng

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2017, 01:25:51 AM »
The people I mentioned above have made up simple brackets so a high speed spindle like a Kress can be mounted at the side of the main spindle and used with small cutters, machine can run the program much faster with the cutter at its optimum speed. One was on a 1100 machine, not sure what the other is without looking back, both have 4th axis

Tormach also makes a water cooled high speed spindle, 24K rpm I think, but I don't need the high speeds enough to warrant it.
I use the machine for prototype work and model engine parts or rather model engine parts and prototypes!

One of the things that helped me really get cranking was forcing myself to use it even though to begin with I could machine something faster on the manual mill.  Of course I didn't have the boss asking why something is taking so long!

John

Offline jadge

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2017, 11:03:37 AM »
I've had a Tormach PCNC1100 Series II for over 8 years now, in the UK. I've made hundreds of parts for work, and my traction engines, in all sorts of materials; plastics, aluminium, cast iron, steel, stainless steel, silver steel (aka W1) and gauge plate (aka O1) with over a thousand hours of running.

Most of the (few) issues I've had with the machine have been electrical/computing. There have been some intermittent spindle issues. These have been traced to poor crimps, a dry joint, and a very poor copy of an industrial connector not making reliable contact. My original PC (not from Tormach) was problematic. I also had some problems with Mach3, particularly in 4th axis applications. Pathpilot seems much better, albeit slightly odd when working in metric units.

I imported into the UK via a shipping agent; I think the total cost was around £2000. About two thirds of that was VAT (government sales tax) and import duty. The single most expensive part of the shipping was a truck from Liverpool to Cambridge.

I bought the mill, 4th axis and some tooling. I made my own stand and tray with built-in coolant. This was partly due to cost, partly because the Tormach stand wouldn't fit in the space available, and because at the time the stand was only available with a 110V 60Hz pump.

Subsequently I've bought more tooling, I use the TTS system on my Bridgeport as well, a power drawbar, not fitted yet  :embarassed:, and an electronic tool height setter.

On the Tormach I tend to use relatively small cutters (mostly <10mm) and run fast with high feedrates. A fundamental part of the equation is CAD/CAM. I design in 3D CAD, and was doing so before I bought the Tormach. If a part is going to made on the CNC mill it helps to orient the part correctly in CAD to start with, rather than faff about in the CAM program. The way I design parts is influenced by the cutters I will use, for instance when setting internal radii or creating narrow channels that need to be milled out. I program the Tormach exclusively in metric for convenience, even though a lot of the traction engine parts are, and are designed in, imperial.

The steepest learning curve for me was fixtures and initial stock size, ie, how am I going to hold this part, what am I going to use for work references and how am I going to set them, what stock will be sacrificial, and so on.

Naturally I can't show most of the work related parts, but here is the first ever part I made, it's a former for a custom differential choke that holds the winding wire equally spaced around the cores:



And this is the internals of an inverter heatsink, about 300mm square, machined a few weeks after I started from knowing diddly squat about CNC:



It was a pretty intense learning period though, with a lot of sleepless nights!

For my traction engines I've made all the wheel spokes, simple but tedious, as well as assorted gears, particularly bevel gears:



And complete sets for the differentials:



When I made the steering worm, I had a lot of issues with CAM and Mach3. In the end the G-code was hand written, and I used inverse time feedrates (G93):



The Tormach also allows me to make tooling I couldn't do otherwise, like spline cutters:





A couple of thoughts while I remember. Getting the electronic tool setter and sorting out tool tables was one of the best things I did. I use a program called NCPlot to look at the G-code I use. Experience has shown that my CAM program doesn't always generate G-code that reflects the toolpath it thinks it is using, which could be embarrassing. NCPlot also provides a useful view of maximum excursions in each axis to check there are no rogue lines of code that will drive the cutter to where it shouldn't be.

I have recently fitted a high speed spindle, up tp 24000rpm:



I've used this both for work (a heatsink with a lot of narrow and deep internal fins) and for making bevel gears for the traction engine governors:



Overall I'm very pleased with my Tormach and wouldn't be without it. Of course there's a strong feeling within the UK modelling world that CNC is 'cheating' but do I give a 4X?  ;D Having the Tormach has changed the way I design and machine parts, allowing me to save time, get a better part, and make parts I couldn't do any other way.  :ThumbsUp:

If the machine is good for me it should be great for a company.

Andrew

Offline Vixen

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2017, 12:38:22 PM »

Of course there's a strong feeling within the UK modelling world that CNC is 'cheating' but do I give a 4X?  ;D Having the Tormach has changed the way I design and machine parts, allowing me to save time, get a better part, and make parts I couldn't do any other way.  :ThumbsUp:
Andrew

Oh, so true.

Mike
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Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2017, 12:45:05 PM »
I'm curious to see how this works out for you Dave; sometime between now and when I retire I would like to add a new CNC to the home shop. I get along with my converted knee mill but it does have it's limitations.
Can you tell us what type of work you will be doing with the Tomach, or is it top secret?

Dave

Small wearable medical device.    About all I can say....think "tiny" engine parts and that's about the right size.


Dave

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Offline kvom

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2017, 12:48:07 PM »
Quote
The steepest learning curve for me was fixtures and initial stock size, ie, how am I going to hold this part, what am I going to use for work references and how am I going to set them, what stock will be sacrificial, and so on.

I think the most thought needed on every part is of this type.

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2017, 01:40:28 PM »
Thanks for that Jadge!   I've been working with Fusion, and getting simulations to run.   But you are so right....where to start!...What fixture?   What are the next steps?

It's starting to gell....just gotta keep at it!    Machine is coming in about 4 days....

 :o

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline mikemill

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2017, 05:53:10 PM »
I concur with Andrews last point, we live computers in most aspects of life these days why not embrace these wonderful machine tools.
Regarding the question of work holding I made plate with holes at 0.5in centres and a bar that works with eccentric centred squares, my copy of MiteBite clamps, works a treat.

Mike

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2017, 11:24:00 PM »
She's up and running and waiting for a command!    Next week I start making chips!

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Damned ijjit!

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2017, 11:45:12 PM »
Beautiful Dave, is that its final location?? Looks more like a conference room or office from the picture.

Bill

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2017, 12:13:28 AM »
Yup that's where its going.    I just spent some time putting in a Derbyshire 750 right next to it

across from it, a Gesswein moto tool station and a baldor style grinder for lathe bits.   And the usual hand tools ect.


This place NEVER had a model shop....now.     They do.

Dave

"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Tin Falcon

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2017, 12:23:03 AM »
Quote
Looks more like a conference room or office from the picture.
With an overhead garage door. !!
Tin

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2017, 12:24:08 AM »
It was the vertical blinds in the first picture that faked me out Tin, I hadn't' see the second picture till just now :)

Bill

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2017, 12:25:34 AM »
Derbyshire 750
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2017, 01:09:02 AM »
Nice looking machines Dave!
Did you get the full enclosure for the mill?


Dave

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2017, 01:11:34 AM »
Nice looking machines Dave!
Did you get the full enclosure for the mill?


Dave

No I didn't   We'll be cutting very small plastic parts mostly.   and I wanted to spend the 1500 on something else, so no flood coolant either....I may live to regret that...but then again....we can add it later

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Walsheng

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2017, 02:53:59 AM »
Until I set up the flood cooling on my machine I used a Micro Drop oiler and it worked pretty well.  I was machining mostly aluminum and plastic, though a good amount of SS as well.
I still use the Micro Drop on the manual mills and the lathes but use flood on everything on the 1100.

John

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2017, 12:45:48 PM »
Until I set up the flood cooling on my machine I used a Micro Drop oiler and it worked pretty well.  I was machining mostly aluminum and plastic, though a good amount of SS as well.
I still use the Micro Drop on the manual mills and the lathes but use flood on everything on the 1100.

John

I discussed the application with Tormach, and they said the mist lube system should be more than sufficient for plastic, which will be most of what we work....Everything else gets lubed the old fashioned way I guess.

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Mosey

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2017, 03:17:08 PM »
Derbyshire 750

Thats pretty, Dave
Mosey

Offline kvom

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2017, 11:19:32 PM »
Even cutting plastic you'll probably get escapees on the floor.   Some shields on each end of the table will help.

Offline steamboatmodel

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2017, 01:49:07 AM »
For test runs of programs when I was in collage learning CNC we used Styrofoam, a lot easier on the tools and nerves with a new program especially a CAM one where you did not do the g code. Another place where we did control panels out of aluminum or steel we used Plexiglas, you could put the test peace over the drawing and major mistakes jumped out at you.
Regards,
Gerald. 
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors--and miss. Lazarus Long

Offline steamer

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Re: My boss is buying me a new toy
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2017, 02:39:12 AM »
Well she's been running for 2 days now, I cut my first "part" yesterday.   Today I spent the day trying to get CAM proficient....it took all day to do some things that now I can do in about 15 minutes...but that's the learning curve isn't it?

I have some plans to cut real parts Thursday...still waiting on some tooling, and indicators ect.   This place only had a drill press and a fist full of worn out drills.....pitiful.

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

 

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