Choice of Material for Kozo's A3 Switcher

[Kim]

While it's a bit early for me to be scouting out a new project, since I still have at least a year before I complete my Steam Tractor build I've been working on, I can't help myself.  I'm starting to think about new projects.  Don't worry, I'll finish. I'm just doing some early thinking...

Anyway, I'm considering making Kozo's A3 Switcher.  I'm reading through his book now and it's just fascinating. Very detailed instructions on many interesting operations.  While I might not need that level of detail on many of the operations, I still find it interesting and am learning a lot by just reading his book.  And it seems like it would be a super fun build to do!  Plus, I've always wanted to build a steam locomotive!

But, on to my question:

In his book, Kozo specifies almost EVERYTHING be made out of brass, and a bit of stainless here and there.  I love working with brass as much as the next guy.  But WOW, would it get expensive FAST!

So, I'm wondering if it seems reasonable to build it out of mainly CRS, with some brass, stainless steel, or copper where it's important.  For example; anything that touches the water should be stainless or brass.  Anything that has to be rounded or formed, or is part of the boiler, should be copper, and so on.

But is there a reason he uses brass for everything?  He does a lot of fabrication by silver soldering brass parts, using little brass screws to hold the pieces together. But it seems you could do all of that fabrication the same way, just substituting CRS and standard stainless fasteners?  Much cheaper than brass. And since I'll be paining it, there's not much value to the pretty brass.  And it'll be like 1/2 to 1/4 the price if I swap out a lot of the brass.

Any thoughts on why he specified brass for everything?  Was it mainly for easy of machining?  Or are there other reasons?

Thanks,
Kim

[crueby]

It may partly be what he had available, but most likely he wanted the extra wieght to help pull passengers, would give the loco more traction. I built his New Shay, and with all the brass it came out to about 55 pounds. Lots of that was the copper boiler, it was 20-ish pounds as I recall.

 He did specify 303 stainless for certain parts, and I liked the way it worked I am using it for most of my Lombard build, also on my Corliss build last year. It cuts pretty nice, no rust, takes silver solder well, and is lots cheaper than the large sizes of brass. Brass is available in more of the smaller sizes, but you can get 303 in round, square, hex, flat in a lot of sizes. For the thin sheet for tank sides, etc, brass is still better, but thin sheet brass is still fairly cheap.

[10KPete]

When I went through Kozos book I came away with the that same thought: I'd have to use cheaper materials!!!

I about a week I had all the substitutions worked out in my head.  If the fertilizer hadn't hit the fan I'd be building it in 7 1/2"......

Great book-- gonna sell mine....

Pete

[kvom]

Brass is only slightly heavier than steel.  Certainly many of the parts could be steel, esp. if you're going to paint them.

[Kim]

It may partly be what he had available, but most likely he wanted the extra wieght to help pull passengers, would give the loco more traction. I built his New Shay, and with all the brass it came out to about 55 pounds. Lots of that was the copper boiler, it was 20-ish pounds as I recall.

 He did specify 303 stainless for certain parts, and I liked the way it worked I am using it for most of my Lombard build, also on my Corliss build last year. It cuts pretty nice, no rust, takes silver solder well, and is lots cheaper than the large sizes of brass. Brass is available in more of the smaller sizes, but you can get 303 in round, square, hex, flat in a lot of sizes. For the thin sheet for tank sides, etc, brass is still better, but thin sheet brass is still fairly cheap.

Thanks Chris,
Since I don't expect to actually be running this on a track anywhere, I'm not worried about losing a few pounds of weight on the engine

Yes, I think the Stainless stuff I'd leave as is, and some of the brass, but for a lot of the framing and structural work, I'm hoping that steel would work just fine. Mainly for the cost savings. 

Even the thin and smaller sized brass seems to be about 2x the price of steel for anything I checked.  The stainless is cheaper than brass, but  more than steel.

But since you've built the New Shay, you have a much better idea of how his construction techniques might or might not work with steel vs brass.  So I really do appreciate your thoughts on this!
Kim

[Kim]

When I went through Kozos book I came away with the that same thought: I'd have to use cheaper materials!!!

I about a week I had all the substitutions worked out in my head.  If the fertilizer hadn't hit the fan I'd be building it in 7 1/2"......

Great book-- gonna sell mine....

Pete

So you won't be building one, Pete?  That's sad
Maybe you want to consider changing your mind and next year (or so) we could do a parallel build?
Kim

[Kim]

Brass is only slightly heavier than steel.  Certainly many of the parts could be steel, esp. if you're going to paint them.

This was my thinking exactly, kvom!
Kim

[crueby]

It may partly be what he had available, but most likely he wanted the extra wieght to help pull passengers, would give the loco more traction. I built his New Shay, and with all the brass it came out to about 55 pounds. Lots of that was the copper boiler, it was 20-ish pounds as I recall.

 He did specify 303 stainless for certain parts, and I liked the way it worked I am using it for most of my Lombard build, also on my Corliss build last year. It cuts pretty nice, no rust, takes silver solder well, and is lots cheaper than the large sizes of brass. Brass is available in more of the smaller sizes, but you can get 303 in round, square, hex, flat in a lot of sizes. For the thin sheet for tank sides, etc, brass is still better, but thin sheet brass is still fairly cheap.

Thanks Chris,
Since I don't expect to actually be running this on a track anywhere, I'm not worried about losing a few pounds of weight on the engine

Yes, I think the Stainless stuff I'd leave as is, and some of the brass, but for a lot of the framing and structural work, I'm hoping that steel would work just fine. Mainly for the cost savings. 

Even the thin and smaller sized brass seems to be about 2x the price of steel for anything I checked.  The stainless is cheaper than brass, but  more than steel.

But since you've built the New Shay, you have a much better idea of how his construction techniques might or might not work with steel vs brass.  So I really do appreciate your thoughts on this!
Kim

I think the 303 option is worth the extra cost - it cuts very nicely, not all that much tougher to machine than brass, and no rust to worry about - it is designed to be a 'free machining' alloy. In general, steel would work just as well as brass for his techniques. He uses a lot of silver soldering, some soft solder, lots of nuts/bolts/screws, so those all work with either metal. Aluminum would be problematic for a lot of it. I wound up buying the larger sizes of brass and steel through places like Yarde Metals, who have a 'drop zone' with offcuts of lots of metals, usually in the larger sizes only but some small stuff sometimes. They are usually about 3' long chunks, at a big discount, and the shipping is very reasonable. Lots of local suppliers have offcuts available for a great price, just the selection varies day to day so it can be tough to find a specific size.

One thing about brass, is that you can stress relieve it at home (500 degrees in the oven for an hour, let cool), which allows you to start with larger thickness/width stock and mill off one side without it warping, which is not as easy with a lot of steel alloys. Kozo calls out lots of metric sizes for stock, usually you can find a inch size close to it, but not always.

I had tried 12L14 steel for the wheels on my Shay, cut nice but they rusted REALLY fast, wound up having to polish then clear coat them right away to keep them looking nice. Using non-stainless steel can be a big headache for rust, the 303 solves all of that.

[Steamer5]

Hi Kim,
 A friend built the Heisler in 5" gauge, built it in steel no problem. The only thing he did different was he figured that silver solder was too expensive to use, so the wheels are brazed instead. There's a Switcher on that " other" site pretty sure that's in steel

Cheers Kerrin

[Kim]

Thanks for the detailed answer, Chris. Yes, sounds like the 303 stainless would be good to look into.  I've found the same rust issue with the 12L14, but I was assuming it'd be painted or at least given a clear coat for the 'non painted' surfaces.  I understand that might not work as well if it were going to have a hard life running around a track. But sitting on a display shelf, clear coat would probably be fine.

Thanks for the pointer, Kerrin.  I'll have to go check out that other site.

Kim

[Jo]

Plus, I've always wanted to build a steam locomotive!

The slippery slope......

If you must then may I suggest you use some castings http://www.friendsmodels.com/productsforsale/kozowheelsdrivers.html 

There is no real reason to use Brass in smaller sizes over normal materials like bronze or steel. Electric mice and steaming rats are normally build in brass as the constructors do not have a full machine shop to hand and can use soft solder for construction. Once you get to G1 and above brass is normally reserved for coachwork as it does not rust.

Jo

P.S. The term "Brass" covers many different types.

[kvom]

I used the Friends castings for the wheels and cylinders on my build.  Very good quality.

[Kim]

Plus, I've always wanted to build a steam locomotive!

The slippery slope......

If you must then may I suggest you use some castings http://www.friendsmodels.com/productsforsale/kozowheelsdrivers.html 

Hmm.... the castings might seem like their own slippery slope.  "Its just drivers, come on, give it a try! You can quit anytime you like!"   
I don't know Jo, I think you might be the cautionary tale here... 

Yes, Brass is pretty broad.  But generally, I'm thinking of 360 leaded brass. Or maybe 260 cartridge brass for sheet/plate stuff.

Thanks for the link, Jo, and all the input.  I do appreciate it!
Kim

[Kim]

I used the Friends castings for the wheels and cylinders on my build.  Very good quality.

Thanks kvom,
Despite my ribbing Jo about the castings, I may decide that's the way I want to go for the drivers.  I do want to look into making them myself - Carving them out or fabing them up.  We'll see.

Thanks,
Kim

[crueby]

Plus, I've always wanted to build a steam locomotive!

  The slippery slope......

If you must then may I suggest you use some castings http://www.friendsmodels.com/productsforsale/kozowheelsdrivers.html 

Hmm.... the castings might seem like their own slippery slope.  "Its just drivers, come on, give it a try! You can quit anytime you like!"   
I don't know Jo, I think you might be the cautionary tale here... 

Yes, Brass is pretty broad.  But generally, I'm thinking of 360 leaded brass. Or maybe 260 cartridge brass for sheet/plate stuff.

Thanks for the link, Jo, and all the input.  I do appreciate it!
Kim

The 360 brass is definitely better for all the rod/bar stock, cuts much easier and cleaner. For the thin sheet stock, usually no choice but to use 260.

The spoked wheels on the New Shay were pretty interesting to make, quite finicky on the fit of the spokes. Kozo showed how to make jigs for holding and soldering, which worked well, but it was an awful lot of little parts to fit. Still, fabbing them up from scratch is much more satisfying in the end.