Author Topic: Ateliers Engine Build  (Read 7328 times)

Offline Rivergypsy

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Ateliers Engine Build
« on: January 20, 2017, 05:06:19 PM »
Just a quick post to kick off the prep work on the next project, the engine which powered the railway workshop in Lyon in the 1800s. A friend, Rich Carlstedt shared an engraving of it he’s got with a few friends, and it just seemed plain rude to let all that detail go to waste 

Solidworks modelling is progressing intermittently but nicely, so we should be looking to start work on castings and drawings in the not too distant future. To give an idea of scale, the flywheel will be just under 12” diameter.
        

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2017, 05:37:37 PM »
Beautiful engine Dave,
It will be fun to watch this one progress.


Dave

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2017, 05:41:24 PM »
Oh, that one will be a beauty for sure...lots of detail work and the base will only add all the more to it in the end. I love it!!

Bill

Offline Roger B

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2017, 06:19:18 PM »
That looks to be a fun project  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: The gear system around the governor on it's own looks to be a complete project  :headscratch:
Best regards

Roger

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2017, 07:35:57 PM »
I shall look forward to following this one along.

Funny enough after your post the other day I came across this while looking for something else

http://images-03.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/371/215/060_001.jpg?v=1

Offline kvom

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2017, 10:32:16 PM »
You don't need no stinkin castings.   :noidea:

Offline Steamer5

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2017, 11:37:02 PM »
Hi Dave,
 Now I know I better get another couple of hectares of  :popcorn: planted!

Looking forward to this build!

Cheers Kerrin
Get excited and make something!

Offline crueby

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2017, 12:10:00 AM »
Very nice looking design - I especially like the placement of the governor in the lower arch. Going to be watching along too!

Kerrin - pass the popcorn bowl!   :popcorn:

Offline Steamer5

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2017, 05:06:19 AM »
Hi Chris,
 Checked the field day before yesterday......coming along nicely!

Put you down for a couple of sack fulls! :lolb:

Cheers Kerrin
Get excited and make something!

Offline Rivergypsy

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2017, 03:21:55 PM »
Many thanks everyone - i hope it'll be entertaining!

KVOM - funny you mention that, as fabrication has been at the back of my mind. However, there's 4 of us aiming to build this one, and Dennis (who did the compound castings) is up for the challenge :)

Jason - where on earth did you find that?! I've searched high and low to find more on this engine, even with extremely poor French, but to no avail...

Dave

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2017, 03:49:06 PM »
I thought you might like that :)

Looking back through my history it seems it came up on Pinterest and as I had seen your post I saved teh image.

A bit more digging found some more images from the same set of ingravings but they don't show more of your project

http://delaby-vapeur.com/igaleriedelaby/?q=album/14-le-mecanicien-industriel-stanislas-petit

Offline fumopuc

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2017, 06:56:46 PM »
Only for information. There is similar engine in Nürnberg, Germany.
https://museen.nuernberg.de/uploads/tx_templavoila/maschinenbauanstalt-spaeth.jpg

Kind Regards
Achim

Offline kvom

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2017, 08:14:40 PM »
Have you been able to figure out the valve?  It looks to be two piece with the top adjusted by the wheel in back.  Also, I'm wondering about the piping;  unclear where the underneath pipe leads.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2017, 08:34:06 PM »
Better still is this version of the coloured engraving, you can zoom in enough to read the dimensions and text . Enjoy

http://gazo.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/petit/limes/PL051-052.html

The whole book is indexed here for anyone with some time on their hands, couple of nice horizontals that would make a slightly simpler project.

http://gazo.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/petit/category/cate04.html
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 08:51:12 PM by Jasonb »

Offline steamer

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2017, 11:42:20 PM »
That riding cut off looks very interesting!!!   I like it!!!

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline ChuckKey

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2017, 12:13:26 AM »
It looks as though it is a Meyer expansion valve, but this is the first time I have seen one apparently controlled by the governor; they are usually adjusted manually. I love the fan-shaped thing on top of each expansion valve rod end, which I take to be a scale for a cut-off indicating pointer.

Offline steamer

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2017, 12:36:58 AM »
Yes but I'm trying to wrap my head around the mechanism that controls the riding cut off governor......hmmmmmmm

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2017, 08:29:02 AM »
Looks like the shaft from the governor goes into a set of bevel gears (u) and rotates the valve rod, if the two pucks on the rod are L/H and R/H threaded then as the valve rod rotated that will move them to cover or uncover more of the valve below.

A similar thread on teh fan shaped dial pointer would let you see the movement of the pucks

Offline ChuckKey

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2017, 10:03:43 AM »
... if the two pucks on the rod are L/H and R/H threaded then as the valve rod rotated that will move them to cover or uncover more of the valve below.

Yes, that is how a Meyer valve works. In playing around with the design of one some years ago, I found that I could more accurately match valve events over a wide range of cut-offs by using slightly different pitches for the two threads. I have two textbooks that discuss the gear in some detail, and neither mentions this possibility.

In this case I too am unclear how the movement of the governor causes the bevels to rotate. In any case I am unconviced as to how well it would have worked: one of the things to avoid in governor gear is friction, and this arrangement would have a lot of that.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2017, 10:26:38 AM »
It may be that the two bevels on the governor shaft are mounted on a helix so as the balls make the shaft go up and down the two smaller wheels rotate on the helix and then rotate the larger gears, this would only be a relatively small movement of the gears probably not even a full rotation so you would need quite  a fast spiral on the valve rod too.

Offline steamer

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2017, 04:15:55 PM »
Yeah but whats confusing is the upper right hand view...which I assume is the governor mechanism...and then the general view with the bevel gears.

the shaft has a bevel gear on the valve spindle...implying it's part of the riding cut off mechanism....but look at the other end ...it's on a radial link joint...which means the shaft can't rotate.....we're missing something.....

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Rivergypsy

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2017, 01:04:23 PM »
Wow, some beautiful engines in the scans, and amazing draughtsmanship too - I can't believe this has just come to light after searching for so long.

In terms of the cut-off, hopefully with a little more modelling it'll be possible to turn the engine over and see quite how the it works at different governor positions. Here's a link to an early animation of the engine from late last year -

Many thanks again all for your help, input and enthusiasm!

Dave

Offline kvom

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2017, 03:18:56 PM »
Looking at the vertical view of the two valve rods it appears that they are separated laterally by 336mm as opposed to being one on top of the other in your model.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2017, 03:57:22 PM »
They look to both be in line and on the ctr line of the cylinder from above

Offline kvom

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2017, 04:25:27 PM »
Seems there must be some sort of offset in the rod between one end and the other.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2017, 04:30:26 PM »
Which bit of which drawing are you seeing an offset in?

J

Offline kvom

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2017, 05:42:44 PM »
My mistake.  I thought that the cam bracket was the upper rod, which is in fact not seen in this view.   :noidea:

Offline gerritv

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2017, 10:08:00 PM »
Drooling over those engravings and the complexity of the machine.
One of you might be interested in https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=delaby&sortby=17&tn=MACHINES+%C0+VAPEUR+

Gerrit
Don't confuse activity with progress

Offline Rivergypsy

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2017, 12:31:15 PM »
LOL, the drawing does take some digging through, doesn't it? That cut-off had us head-scratching for a while, as did the rear support bearing, although it has to be said i did ponder the option of mirroring the engine to put another two cylinders on the other side of the flywheel... :naughty:

Offline Rivergypsy

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2017, 12:36:17 PM »
Btw, thanks for the book links - now on order from Amazon!  :happyreader:

Offline PJPickard

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2017, 05:20:43 PM »
Might castings be available to others? ;)

Offline Zephyrin

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2017, 05:59:38 PM »
Wow, great project, it will be a treat for you to machine all these parts !
in addition to this sophisticated mechanics, not plain pieces of metal, but decorated, all of them !
brave man !

Offline Rivergypsy

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2017, 01:09:13 PM »
PJ - let me speak to Dennis and see how he feels about more sets. I had a sneaking suspicion that part of this project would be a full drawing pack instead of fag packet sketches...  :facepalm:

Yup, it should be a great project, especially with the extra info - not fast if it's going to be done right, but the end result should be worth it! More SW on it tomorrow hopefully.


Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2017, 01:19:30 PM »
With the amount of detailed parts on that engine you would need a 100 a day habit to keep up the supply of fag packets :ShakeHead:

I meant to ask is there any progress on your full size engine?

Offline kvom

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2017, 04:56:42 PM »
Is this slated to be a team build, or everyone doing their own?

Offline Rivergypsy

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2017, 12:36:04 PM »
No, this one is everyone doing their own. I suspect there will be collaboration though, in that if someone is getting pieces laser cut, for example, it'd be nice to do a set for everyone.

Jason - I'm afraid to say I let it go. It was too heavy, too big, and the money & space liberated brought me a very nice little Kunzmann universal mill. It was a lovely thing, but right now it was just a bit too much :(

Offline GWRdriver

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2019, 04:01:43 PM »
After months of merciless prodding :stickpoke: (which I needed anyway) I've joined my friend Dave and a few others in this build group.
It's a bit of a departure for me but it will a very interesting new challenge and model engineering adventure.
Thanks Dave!  :cheers:
Cheers,
Harry

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2019, 04:13:27 PM »
that sounds good, maybe an update of the state of play would be handy assuming some progress has been made in the last two years?

Online sco

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2019, 07:34:02 PM »
Some progress:
Ars longa, vita brevis.

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2019, 09:13:47 PM »
Looks beautiful Simon  :praise2:

Is it welded together or  :noidea:

Online sco

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2019, 09:45:06 PM »
At the moment it is just fitted together - the parts are really close fitting and there is quite a lot of interlocking.  Plan will be to solder it as some point but I daren't do that yet as there is sure to be a need to take it apart for some reason.

Simon.
Ars longa, vita brevis.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2019, 07:03:25 AM »
Should be a fun one to solder up. Is there a machining allowance so the critical surfaces can be skimmed after soldering or will mating parts be "adjusted" to suit?

Can you give an idea of the size of that assembly as I don't remember a scale being mentioned? I suppose anything will be a compromise between having it large enough to be able to model the small parts but being able to machine the large items such as the flywheel.

Offline Dennis

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Re: Ateliers Engine Build
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2019, 03:36:12 PM »
Dave, glad you started a thread on this build.  It is going to be a beautiful model and fun build.  Simon, thanks for posting your assembly, mine is still sitting on the desk in my den, the parts are beautiful as cut and the precision is amazing.

I am greatly impresses by all the comments and input from everyone so far.  Every time I think I am starting to know a little about steam engines I read a column like this one and quickly get humbled by the knowledge freely shared by everyone else.  Thank you all and I hope you continue commenting throughout the project. 
Dennis