Author Topic: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine  (Read 1299 times)

Offline Ramon

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2017, 10:31:58 AM »
That didn't answer Todds question either -

Todd - the retaining compounds will 'stick' flat surfaces to a degree but as Steamer says is really designed for cylindrical items. The product you need for that  is JB Weld - take a look here http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,2851.435.html Post 439 onwards

I (and others ) have used this for many years  - easy to come by and extremely good for the task - well worth getting some but use the standard type rather than the fast cure.

Have to dash - going to my old works for some material ;)

Ramon

Offline Jo

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2017, 09:11:41 AM »
I think the problem is that there are too many parts to this question and companies like Loctite do specialist products to meet each of them. So lets try to simplify it into groups Engineering Applications, Bonding and Structural Bonding:

Engineering Applications = forming precision assemblies

     Thread locker - prevents self-loosening where there is vibration or shock.
     Thread Sealants - prevent gas or liquid seeping through a thread.
     Retainer products (6XX) are for combining cylindrical assemblies,

Bonding = joining close fitting surfaces

     Instant Adhesives are for positioning and fixing parts (Super glues  :))
     Light cure Adhesives keep the glue liquid until you expose it to light to cure the glue
     Hot melt Adhesives are for rapid initial strength & difficult to bond plastics

Structural Bonding = bonding two similar or dissimilar materials using a bridge between the materials.

     Epoxies (JB Weld) - provides ridged bonding
     Acrylics -  Flexible bonding in small areas
     Polyurethanes - Flexible bonds in large gaps

Soldering and Brazing (Silver soldering) is another technology all together  ::)

Jo

Note: With thanks to Loctite for their definitions  ;)
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Offline Mike Bondarczuk

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2017, 11:55:07 AM »
Hi Jo,

Those are very clear definitions of purpose and what would be nice for Loctite to provide would be their product numbers to match the applications.

I am sure there are quite a few of us trying to make sure we use the correct product for the job in hand but not always certain that we are correct.

A case in point is my current build of the "Educational" engine from the Elmer collection and I have need for bushing adhesives as well as crank adhesives, and am unsure which numbers to use.

Mike

Offline Jo

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2017, 10:03:20 AM »
A case in point is my current build of the "Educational" engine from the Elmer collection and I have need for bushing adhesives as well as crank adhesives, and am unsure which numbers to use.

So both engineering purposes...... the differences between the 6XX series are: time to go off, strength and the gap.

As you are new to this you need time to get a joint right and you are in no rush so shouldn't worry about having to leave it over night. Strength in comparison with many engineering applications our steam engines are not very taxing (some IC engines can be  :o) and the gap I hope you can do 0.1mm. So a bottle of 601 will do you nicely  ;)

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2017, 01:08:28 PM »
My main reason for using the 648 is that I have a big bottle of it, originally bought to fit a liner into my Fowler traction engine cylinder which woul dhave got hot and had upto 100psi to deal with.

As I said earlier and Ramon has also said these stationary engines get run with little or no load and at slow speeds so almost any of the similar products will do

Offline steamer

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2017, 01:10:12 PM »
I mention 648 because it will handle a line to line fit as well as a gap...so that makes it a little more "model engine maker" proof....and it will handle significant temperatures

603 is discontinued over here, last time I went looking for it.

I have a small bottle of 648 that I keep in our RC car tool kit next to the super glue....but it's only used when I don't want it to ever come apart again.

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
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Offline steve-de24

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2017, 01:32:58 PM »
Jason, as you've got a big bottle of 648 presumably you've had it a while. Has 648 got a shelf life? How old is yours? Any special storage requirements?
Steve

Offline Jo

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2017, 01:41:27 PM »
One of the great things about the Loctite products is that if it is still liquid it still works  ;)

Unlike some other products  :Doh:

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2017, 01:44:03 PM »
Looking back at the date of photos I would say I have had that since 2009. I don't do anything special to store mine it just sits on a shelf in the workshop.

I recently read that contact with metal can act as a catalyst and start to set it off so now don't apply directly to the parts, just put a blob on something plastic and apply that to the work.

J

Offline steamer

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2017, 02:07:58 PM »
Hi Jo,

Those are very clear definitions of purpose and what would be nice for Loctite to provide would be their product numbers to match the applications.

I am sure there are quite a few of us trying to make sure we use the correct product for the job in hand but not always certain that we are correct.

A case in point is my current build of the "Educational" engine from the Elmer collection and I have need for bushing adhesives as well as crank adhesives, and am unsure which numbers to use.

Mike

Loctite provides this information ad nauseum.   It's out there, but you have to dig into it   

 http://us.loctite-success.com/content/uag/oneloctite-campaign/us/www/en/solutions-guide.html/

Most cases, I stick with a handful of products.   Threadlocker and retaining compound

I use 222 for screws I want to take apart again sometime in the future.

I use 272 for screws that are permanent.

I use 648 for cylindrical bonding....period.     If you heat the assembled parts to about 400F, they'll let go....

Dave

PS....Perhaps we should start a separate thread for all this........8-)

PPS    NEVER EVER EVER put Loctite fastener or retaining compound products on plastics or paint unless they are specifically designed for plastic or paint.....  8-)

« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 02:13:59 PM by steamer »
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Online tinglett

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2017, 07:22:32 PM »
The Crosshead Trunk Base

It's the weekend and time for the shop!  The crosshead trunk I've constructed so far will need lugs for bolting the engine to the floor, so to speak.  The article suggests either milling these from the block that forms the trunk, or alternatively machine grooves at front/back of the trunk and attach square bars extending beyond the width of the trunk to form the lugs.  I took a third approach because I didn't have material tall enough for the trunk, so my lugs are really part of a baseplate under the trunk.  I'll show that today.

I started by screwing a sketchy looking piece of 1/4" thick 1018 steel to the crosshead trunk I made.  Recall I already had threaded holes in the trunk that were used for screws to hold it to a mandrel.  I thought this was a fine re-use of these holes.


Next, I machined the base to size.  I decided it would be best to do this while it is attached to the trunk.  You can see I slopped on some dykem dye so I could see when the ends were flush with the trunk, and I used a depth gauge when working the long dimension until they were 1/4" offset.  That's the allowance for the lugs.


I skimmed it with a facing mill to make sure it sits perfectly flat.  The finish of my cut is getting real lousy so I'm assuming the inserts are getting dull.  My lighting is rather harsh and makes it look worse than it is.  But it's still not great...but not visible on the finished engine either.


Now it was a matter of hogging out material leaving the lugs behind.  Note again that I added dye so I can see when I touch the side of the trunk.  This worked really well on this side, but I overshot a bit on the other side :(.  But nothing a file can't fix.  I was just trying to avoid file work as much as possible.


Here's the cleanup pass.  The dye worked well.  I'm just starting to smudge it around.


Then it was simply a matter of drilling the four holes into the lugs.  This was easy to do from the underside.


The crosshead trunk is now almost done.  I need to make front/rear plates for it and turn down the ends to form bosses for fitting into these plates.  When I do that turning I'll do a final touchup so the ends are perfectly flush.  The plates, in theory, will be silver soldered in place.


Next, I need to make those front/rear plates.  Hopefully I'll get that much done this weekend.  Stay tuned!

Todd

Offline gerritv

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2017, 09:06:19 PM »
I use the technical term 'fitting' when I find a file is necessary for finishing :-) In the old world this might also be called fettling.

Result looks great, esp the surface where it counts, as in visible. I have my own troubles when coming up to the line on cuts. I have a horizontal mill so visibility of the cut line is more challenging, generally requiring much light and a mirror. It does get better with practice of course.

Gerrit

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Offline Ramon

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2017, 11:49:06 PM »
That's coming on Todd  :ThumbsUp:

I was drawing my version out this morning and it occurred that there is a redundant surface with the trunk bolted down and the spigot fitting the rear plate. Whether you silver solder it all up or JB Weld it, it may pay to elongate the hole for the spigot slightly in the rear  plate to make allowance for any vertical discrepancy or take another fine cut across the base overall after joining.

Keep it coming

Regards - Ramon


Offline Jasonb

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2017, 09:41:07 AM »
Or if you want to make it more like the original in the background photo then don't make the plate a D shape make it round :)

If you do stay with teh D shape and want to JB Weld it a small CSK screw or two could be added into the lower part of teh trunk guide for extra security.

Offline Ramon

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Re: Jesse Livingston Rocking Valve Mill Engine
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2017, 08:36:55 AM »
Or if you want to make it more like the original in the background photo then don't make the plate a D shape make it round :)

If you do stay with teh D shape and want to JB Weld it a small CSK screw or two could be added into the lower part of teh trunk guide for extra security.

Hi Jason,

Changing the shape won't alter the fact there's a redundant surface - the position of the locating hole in the bed plate from the lower surface has to be identical to that of the spigot on the trunk guide from it's lower surface - given a good fit of spigot to hole course  ;) By elongating the hole slightly it will eliminate any distortion when the two are brought together to be soldered/JB'd with the lower surfaces in perfect alignment or taking a facing cut over the two once fixed - personally I'd do the former and let it all find it's own level rather than having to re-machine.

Just my thinking on looking ahead

Ramon