Author Topic: Otto Langen knowledge database  (Read 977 times)

Online TobyTetzy

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Otto Langen knowledge database
« on: April 10, 2019, 08:36:14 AM »
Hello,

I would like to create a thread here in which all known information about the Otto Langen engine are brought together.
I think it's good if you get an overview of the engines and models.

I'll start with my knowledge.
There were the E.Lenaz drawings from 1999. Unfortunately not published on the internet.

The drawings by Phil_L are from the E.Lenaz drawings.
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5692.0.html

There are the drawings of Julius de Waal. These also stem from E.Lenaz drawings. However, he made changes to the column and used metric dimensions.
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,8235.0.html

I found these drawings of engine no. 7 in Cologne.
(Keiran H. column)
https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1445&context=mesp

I got some sketches of the Grenning 1/6 engine. Unfortunately not complete.

Next I will get sketches of another replica. (K.G. column)

Here is some info "The specs of the engine are 5.9" bore, 37 "maximum stroke, 49" flywheel, 1/2 HP at 80 RPM. "
https://www.roughandtumble.org/ottolangen

On the side of Wayne Grenning there is some information and on his Facebook page many pictures of the 1: 1 replica.
There he writes of a 50 "flywheel, 5.5" bore, using MOD6 56T and 50T with a 46T for the clutch.

https://sites.google.com/site/wgrenning/

https://www.facebook.com/GrenningModelsOttoLangenEngine/

Here is an overview of the different engines and their size.
I am very confused, which size corresponds to the original.
Is not there any specific information about the engines?
Who says the column of engine No.1 (in Cologne) is the same as that of engine No.7 (in Munich)?

Greeting Toby

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2019, 11:46:40 AM »
Toby

I have just sent you a STEP file of mine that you may be able to add to the line up.

I don't think any of the originals were exactly the same as they came out the factory and they have also been altered and repaired over the years. Add to that we don't know what information the likes of Lenaz had when he produced his drawings ( suspect the patent drawing) and all the models being simplified in some way for easier operation and ignition will mean there is no single "CORRECT" engine

Online TobyTetzy

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2019, 09:01:39 PM »
Thank you Jason.

I recived the files and can open it.
Nice work.
I'll see what I can do with it.
I had do changes to the positions of the bearing blocks, to use a 49 teeth clutch gear and add the 9x9 mm rack. Like I send you over E-mail.
Also add main and eccenter shaft.

Now I wait for drawings of K.G. then I will see what to do with it.

I also had many questions about the valve and eccenter functions.

Toby

Online TobyTetzy

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 01:04:19 PM »
Hello,

I've inserted your Otto, Jason.  ;)
He is really tall.

I made something on your model again. I think that with a 49 teeth clutch gear comes better than with the 46 teeth gear.
For 49 teeth, the rack is exactly in the middle of the hole and the two shafts are the same distance from the hole.
In addition, the rack is the same thickness as the long guides.
I do not know if it's that easy to mill a rack thinner.
I found racks M1.5 in 17x17mm, 15x15mm and 10x10mm.

Then I found a coupling HF1816, with the dimensions 18x24x16. At first I thought to take a HF1616 16x22x16.
However, I think that the larger leadership of the clutch is advantageous if you take a 15mm shaft.

Greeting Toby

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 01:59:25 PM »
Thanks for that Toby, it does look big compared to the others!

I could still get a larger Clutch gear if I wanted to move the rack closer to the ctr line but that would mean I have to add a complete big end to the bottom of the rack, as it is at the moment I can get the pin in without it cutting through the teeth. I hope the rack can be reduced in size as that is what I was intending to do.

I was going to go for a clutch bearing that has an inner race rather than the rollers running on the shaft which will be a bit more forgiving when it comes to fit. This is what I am hoping to use with a 17mm bore.

https://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Sprag-Clutch-Bearings/CSK17-Budget-Sprag-Clutch-Bearing-without-Keyways-137623-p

Online TobyTetzy

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2019, 11:29:53 AM »
Hello,

Jason, with the roller freewheel on the shaft is a good argument.
Then the shaft must also be hardened, I know that from my model helicopters.

Have found your freewheel here.
https://www.sturm-kugellager-shop.de/freilaeufe/kkfl..-2rs-pp/2058/klemmkoerperfreilauf-kkfl-15-2rs-pp?c=130

It also gives the freewheel as 15 x 35 x 11 mm.
https://www.sturm-kugellager-shop.de/freilaeufe/kkfl-..-pp/606/klemmkoerperfreilauf-kkfl-15-pp?c=130

Original, the coupling core is clamped on the feather key with a screw. How do you want to do this? Maybe stick?

I think you have to solder something down the rack to get more material for the bearing hole.

I have seen that the clutch core of Grenning and the drawings of the annimated Otto are very similar. I also mean the dimensions.
Then the drawings are not so wrong.
Whether you ask if you can get the 3D models?

Jason, did you see that both bearing blocks at Grenning are the same high?
Once the eccentric block as a drawing, once the main shaft block as a picture of the drawing under the component.
It's different in your model.  ::)

The column of Lenaz reminds me too much of the sketches of the Dingler Journal. My friend K.G. has used that as well. I will visit him tomorrow.

Today I made something further.  ;)
The lever for the safety valve could work like this.
I think you can build it as a dummy.

Greeting Toby

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2019, 12:34:53 PM »
I think I went for the larger 17mm Bearing (CSK17) as it has more width so possibly less wobble of the gear, also my main gear which was bought has a 16mm bore so shaft will need to be at least that diameter.

Will probably use a parallel key and Loctite.

Yes I will probably solder somethng to the teeth side of the rack to reduce the risk of it splitting over the short distance to the bottom of the teeth but the hole will still be through the solid metal.

My notes show I took the Eccentriv bearing as 7.200" tall, need to go and look where I got that from but it woud only need 0.3mm adding to the bottom to bring them back upto the 7.250" at 1/4 scale.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 12:57:51 PM by Jasonb »

Offline steam guy willy

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2019, 03:00:13 PM »
Hi Toby, I find it quite interesting how these computer generated drawings depicts the 3 dimensional aspects of the components !! as i only use pen and paper i am always conscious of making my drawings spring to life  !! I have a lot of books with varying examples of how other people tackle this........ .Good luck with your future builds also.....
Willy

Online TobyTetzy

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2019, 06:15:49 PM »
Hi

Jason, I have to redraw the bearing block because the imported file has no sketches.

Willy, the great thing about the 3D models is that you can see if everything fits together. If not, you can change it.
So you can recognize errors in drawings.

Toby

Online TobyTetzy

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2019, 05:35:21 PM »
Hello,

I did something about Otto Langen's drawings.

Now comes the difficult part:
I have to understand how the eccentrics play with the valve.

The following is written in the drawings of Phlil_L:
The High Point of the Slide Valve Eccentric should be in horizontal position with the high point towards the rack. Srew the yoke with the valve slide up and down on the valve rod.

I hope I got it right.
Figure A01 shows the eccentric in this position.
Figure A02 shows the appropriately set valve.

Figures B01 and B02 show the position where the ratchet is fixed and B03 the moment when the rack releases the ratchet via the lever.
The exhaust is slightly open.
The window in the slide valve is above the gas and air inlet.

Figures C01 and C02.
The eccentric rotates 90 degrees further.
The valve goes down.
The exhaust is closed.
The window in the slide valve is above the gas and air inlet and now also above the inlet to the cylinder.

Figures D01 and D02.
The eccentric continues to turn 90 degrees.
The valve goes up.
The exhaust is open again? Why that?
The window in the slide valve is located above air inlet. The inlet to the cylinder is closed again.

Picture E01 and E02.
The eccentric continues to turn 90 degrees.
The valve continues up.
All channels to the cylinder are closed.
The breaker of ignition is released, it is detonated.

Picture F01 and F02.
The eccentric continues to turn 90 degrees.
The lever that blocks the ratchet is free because the piston is up.
The ratchet is stuck again. The eccentric can not turn further.
The exhaust is slightly open.
The engine should generate a vacuum. How can that be with the exhaust open?

So far, so good, but I do not understand it.

Something else that I do not understand.
In the drawings of Lenaz, Phil_L and Julius, the holes and windows in the valve gate are always slightly offset in the port face.
Is this a typographical error or is it intentional?

Maybe someone knows advice, my head is already smoking.

Greeting Toby

Online TobyTetzy

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2019, 05:36:26 PM »
more pictures.

Offline kvom

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2019, 07:57:08 PM »
My wife recently gifted me with a 1979 coffee table book, A history of the Machine by Sigvard Strandh.  One page has what appear to be front and side parent drawings of the 1867 engine, along with a description of the parts and short explanations of the operation.  I'll be happy to scan and upload this page if it's of any interest here.

Online TobyTetzy

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2019, 08:11:13 PM »

Hello,

with pleasure. Every little thing can be helpful.

Toby

Offline kvom

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2019, 10:16:34 PM »
Scan of page
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 10:21:20 PM by kvom »

Online TobyTetzy

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Re: Otto Langen knowledge database
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2019, 09:17:26 AM »
Hello,

KVOM, thanks for the information, that helped a bit.

I have, hidden something, at Grenning even wittier information found how it all funtionieren.

https://www.facebook.com/GrenningModelsOttoLangenEngine/photos/a.1339491122732055/1513865165294649/?type=3&theater

To understand, I've drawn the "Original" sliding valve times and transfer the function to my eccentric.

I've done something with the eccentrics. That's not so easy, but doable.
But there is still a lot to change until everything fits together. I still miss a few millimeters here and there.

Greeting Toby