Author Topic: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine  (Read 257849 times)

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2016, 01:40:55 PM »
Wow!  This is going to be a great show.  I am happy to see you undertake the undercarriage parts yourself.  Just one track frame with sprockets and tracks would be a challenge for anyone.  You will surely produce a great model.

Tracks are an area of special interest to me since I spent a fair part of my life in the construction equipment industry, mostly involved with surface mining machines.  The biggest Caterpillar and Komatsu dozers are used in strip mining and the details of track maintenance and repair constitute a a major share of the operating expense for these huge machines.   Draglines and power shovels are also track mounted but they move material by swinging a long boom rather that pushing it around, track wear is less of an expense factor. 

Lombard's early track design  was much more like today's dragline or shovel tracks than they are like modern buldozers.  The track pads or plates of today's dozers do not incorporate a pivot pin.  They are bolted to links which are pinned together to form the track chain.  Lombard's later machines used this link structure but his original machines used pinned pads as you have shown.

There are some details of these pads that do not show up in your plan but may be critical in keeping the track in alignment under the machine.  These details can be seen in some of the photos and on other views of the manual.  I am talking about the four bars on the inside surface of the pad which form guide channels for the track rollers.  These are visible on view 81M of the pad.  There is also a large lug in the center that is engaged by the deep groove on the sprockets (#77 and 76 Lags on the manual page).  The shallow groove in the sprocket engages the roll #89 which is on the pivot pin but the deep groove engages the lug which is located on the narrow part of the pad in the center.

For a lightly loaded model, you can probably ignore the lug but  I think that the guide channels may be important.  It will need a thicker plate to start with the channels milled back to your working dimension.  I am pretty sure that the originals were cast. You will still want the deep grove in the sprocket to avoid contact with the shoe.   I can't help using current terminology for these track parts.  Today, we say pads or shoes instead of lags.

Jerry
Hi Jerry,

I had seen the guide channels on the inside of the pads in the photos on the museum site, but didn't know what they were for. Makes sense that they helped keep things aligned with the roller chain. It should be possible to mill them in though. There is enough thickness of the plate to do a shallow ridge there. Do you think that it will make much difference in a track that is only 5" long? That lug on the inside of the center post may not be as easy to do, may be able to do it with a ball end mill, have to experiment with that. Thanks for the information, this is my first attempt at making anything with tracks so it is all new to me! 

 :cheers:

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2016, 02:30:36 PM »
Chris - I don't know that length makes much difference.  There are a lot of pin to pad holes that must be loose enough for the track to flex and it will flex right and left as well as around the sprockets.  I see a real challenge in drilling those pivot holes in the pads

The lug doesn't do much for track alignment but the guide chanels may be critical.  It is not unusual for a modern dozer to run out of a track if the track is not well maintained and adjusted.  Wear of the pivot pins and bushings causes the track to get longer but wear of the sprocket causes it to get smaller and eventually, the difference in pitch will let the sprocket climb out of the track.   This usually happens in a turn where there is a lot of side force.

You will not likely get enough wear to make a difference but unless you have enough clearance in the pivot pin holes, the track may be too stiff.  The Lombard  does not have a very tight turning radius and unlike modern dozers, it has a differential to equalize some of the forces.  If you run it on grass or snow there may not be much side force and you can run it with skis instead of wheels. 
There are thing that you can do and some things you can't do.
Don't worry about it. try it anyway.

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2016, 02:50:26 PM »
Chris - I don't know that length makes much difference.  There are a lot of pin to pad holes that must be loose enough for the track to flex and it will flex right and left as well as around the sprockets.  I see a real challenge in drilling those pivot holes in the pads

The lug doesn't do much for track alignment but the guide chanels may be critical.  It is not unusual for a modern dozer to run out of a track if the track is not well maintained and adjusted.  Wear of the pivot pins and bushings causes the track to get longer but wear of the sprocket causes it to get smaller and eventually, the difference in pitch will let the sprocket climb out of the track.   This usually happens in a turn where there is a lot of side force.

You will not likely get enough wear to make a difference but unless you have enough clearance in the pivot pin holes, the track may be too stiff.  The Lombard  does not have a very tight turning radius and unlike modern dozers, it has a differential to equalize some of the forces.  If you run it on grass or snow there may not be much side force and you can run it with skis instead of wheels.
Good info, thanks!  I can see where the side loads on dozers can be much higher, especially when running one forward and one back, which the Lombard can't do, but still will be forces like that. It sounds like it would be a good idea to make up a few sections to test before making mass quantities of them.

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2016, 03:57:06 PM »
Chris - Big dozers don't have the ability to counter rotate.   That is only on the smaller machines using hydrostatic drives.  Big dozers with mechanical drive  have a clutch and a brake for each track.  For a short turn, one track is locked by releasing the clutch and applying the brake.  The other track can run forward or reverse to swing the machine.  There were two big dozers that could counter rotate but I don't think it was used often.  The Euclid dozer had two separate engines and drive trains that could operate independently and the Komatsu 455 had one engine but two independent transmissions, one for each track.  Of course things may have changed a bit in the past twenty years.  John Deere has been using hydraulic transmissions  in bigger machines but they don't compete in the biggest class of dozers.

It never hurts to make a few test pieces to see where the sticky parts are.
There are thing that you can do and some things you can't do.
Don't worry about it. try it anyway.

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2016, 06:20:07 PM »
Chris - Big dozers don't have the ability to counter rotate.   That is only on the smaller machines using hydrostatic drives.  Big dozers with mechanical drive  have a clutch and a brake for each track.  For a short turn, one track is locked by releasing the clutch and applying the brake.  The other track can run forward or reverse to swing the machine.  There were two big dozers that could counter rotate but I don't think it was used often.  The Euclid dozer had two separate engines and drive trains that could operate independently and the Komatsu 455 had one engine but two independent transmissions, one for each track.  Of course things may have changed a bit in the past twenty years.  John Deere has been using hydraulic transmissions  in bigger machines but they don't compete in the biggest class of dozers.

It never hurts to make a few test pieces to see where the sticky parts are.

Never knew that about the dozers. Can tell you have spent a bit of time with the big machines - sounds like you need to model one...  :thinking:

Online Roger B

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2016, 07:26:04 PM »
That's a fine challenge you have set for yourself  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I will be following along  :wine1:

One of this type of log hauler was featured in the German 'Maschinen in Modellbau'  magazine a little while ago.
Best regards

Roger

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2016, 08:04:17 PM »
That's a fine challenge you have set for yourself  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: I will be following along  :wine1:

One of this type of log hauler was featured in the German 'Maschinen in Modellbau'  magazine a little while ago.
I was looking at their site for it, looks like a nice magazine. Do you know what issue it was? I looked in their archive but did not see it.
I have found old articles in the 1975/76 issues of Live Steam magazine, some good history mixed in there.

UPDATE: Found the article, it is in the March 2016 issue. It is actually about the Phoenix Hauler version. Lombard licensed the patents to another builder, who made the Phoenix version for a number of years. They were slightly different - they used a pair of vertical cylinders per side, looking more like a Shay engine, and the steering linkage angled back rather than straight down. Also the tracks were a little different, being a shaft/gear drive rather than the drive chain from the differential, and the roller chain took a different route. Same basic ideas, implemented a little differently. Now, if some one of you were to build a Phoenix at the same scale, we could have some nice races between them....

Thanks for the tip to the magazine, have to brush up on my German skills...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 08:19:51 PM by crueby »

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2016, 11:51:48 PM »
Started in on the track plates, couple short sessions with the recip saw and got all the blanks cut to rough length, leaving a bit to square them up and trim them to exact length, making a good bin full:


Then started in on the mill, first I took a light pass on one end to square up the rough cut end. This went pretty quick - clamp in, back/forth on the table, stop motor and swap out for the next one, repeat for an hour...

That left the parts bin full of plates with one end done, then took a few minutes to take one down to exact length, and zeroed the handwheel at that position. Now, should be able to trim the rest in fairly short order, just need to make sure that no chips get in the slot when changing parts.
Here is how the plates will fit into the jig for working on the sides, using the wider section of the recess in the top of the jig:

When I get to cutting the 'fingers' at the edge, I will first make slightly wider slots in the top surface of the jig so the end mill can project through the part a little and does not rub on the jig.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 08:10:30 PM by crueby »

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2016, 12:12:27 AM »
Captain Jerry - Was taking another look through the piles and piles of photos they have up on the logging museum site, and found the picture set that shows the ridges you were describing on the inside of the tracks to hold the rollers from the lower chain in place:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/111959800036861918331/album/AF1QipNNXIOUWoS_f5aig9hyvnSdLkBsJImiUwNzdagu

I will definitely get that detail in on mine - thanks!!

I still have lots of the albums from their restoration to sort through, it will be a constant process through this build I am sure. For those who are interested, here is the link to all the album sets they have from the students helping the restoration, tons of great details:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/111959800036861918331

Offline Captain Jerry

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2016, 03:07:41 AM »
I am sure that you will be happy that you are including the guide channels.  You didn't have to go that far to see them.  They are clear enough in your first post on this thread in the photo with the rollers.  That photo also shows the drive lug. That roller system is a very nice feature and though not used on later track designs looks like it would be very efficient.  It brings to mind the recirculating bals in a linear bearing system.

By the way, that same photo is also the only one that I have found that clearly shows that there are two roller chains on each track frame, four in all.  I was almost sure that there had to be but it took me more than a few looks at that picture before I spotted the inside rollers and chain, peeking through the spokes of the sprocket.
There are thing that you can do and some things you can't do.
Don't worry about it. try it anyway.

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2016, 04:16:45 AM »
I am sure that you will be happy that you are including the guide channels.  You didn't have to go that far to see them.  They are clear enough in your first post on this thread in the photo with the rollers.  That photo also shows the drive lug. That roller system is a very nice feature and though not used on later track designs looks like it would be very efficient.  It brings to mind the recirculating bals in a linear bearing system.

By the way, that same photo is also the only one that I have found that clearly shows that there are two roller chains on each track frame, four in all.  I was almost sure that there had to be but it took me more than a few looks at that picture before I spotted the inside rollers and chain, peeking through the spokes of the sprocket.

I had wondered early on about whether there was a roller chain on both sides of each track too, saw both in some of the photos and videos they have of the underside of the frames. It was interesting to see how different the Phoenix hauler track system is too, lots of changes there. I gotta make a trip up to the museum in Maine sometime...

Offline Steamer5

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2016, 05:02:49 AM »
Hi Chris,
  :popcorn: :popcorn: oh and more  :popcorn:, plus  :DrinkPint: or two to wash it down with all sorted!

You don't let the grass grow under your feet! Once you get this finished any grass left growing at your place is going to be under threat!

Question for you..... How come you are not building a full loco style boiler, ie multi tubes but only a fire tube?

Cheers Kerrin
Get excited and make something!

Offline kvom

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2016, 01:03:52 PM »
For display at shows, hopefully you'll be able to raise the model so that the tracks can be seen moving in place.

Offline crueby

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2016, 02:05:39 PM »
Hi Chris,
  :popcorn: :popcorn: oh and more  :popcorn:, plus  :DrinkPint: or two to wash it down with all sorted!

You don't let the grass grow under your feet! Once you get this finished any grass left growing at your place is going to be under threat!

Question for you..... How come you are not building a full loco style boiler, ie multi tubes but only a fire tube?

Cheers Kerrin
The boiler burner is going to be one from a Gauge 1 supplier, as will the butane tank. I have that setup in a couple of locos, nice and simple both to build and to run. The original was fired on coal or wood, but for easy running, plus ability to run indoors at events, butane is a much better choice. The outside of the firebox will be shaped to look like the original but inside there will be the single burner into one larger firetube.

Offline RonGinger

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Re: Chris' Build of a Lombard Hauler Engine
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2016, 02:08:34 PM »
In the 'Small World' vein, you found that some work was done at the University of Maine on the restoration. Brian Barker, who now owns the Mach3 CNC software business was at the U then and made the cylinder, Piston and rod, and some track rollers. I just told him about your project and he is interested. Why dont you come out to Maine for a few days, we can visit the museum and Brians shop.