Author Topic: Getting and keeping your vice straight  (Read 16410 times)

Bogstandard

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Getting and keeping your vice straight
« on: September 02, 2012, 11:20:57 AM »
A lot of people already know about this little exercise, but there may be a few who don't.

When you remount your vice to the mill table, it should then straightened up, by running a DTI along the fixed jaw (I prefer to use a parallel mounted in the vice) by feeding backwards and forwards on the X axis. You then gently tap the vice until you get the same reading at either end of the jaw, then the vice is locked down and everything is rechecked again. At times this can be a real PITA, and normally takes about 10 to 15mins to get it spot on.

This little exercise, if done carefully, can do away with the vice alignment check completely

A few years ago, I bought a new mill and a 6" vice to fit onto it. Everything else, rotab, spindexer, got an auto aligning bar, but I never got around to doing the vice.

You will have to excuse some of the pics, the battery was getting low in my camera, so I couldn't use the flash to counteract camera shake.

I was lucky in that I had some 5/8" bar that was a perfect fit into the T-slots on my mill table, it needs to be pushed into the slot, not drop thru. If you don't have such bar, you will have to machine some up until it fits perfectly.
Another bit of luck was that I had my 4 jaw self centring already on the lathe, so I just parted off a bit over 4" long. That saved me some armwork.




This shows the bar, it should self support in the T-slot. In fact, you should make up a couple of bars like this so that you can square bits up along the slots if you are working without the vice, or even a couple of bits of round stock that sits up above the table face. They really do save a lot of time. I have a couple of brass bars that I machined up when I first got the mill.



The first job was to get the ends machined up and the bar to the correct length.



Then I went along every corner edge with a roundover bit, you could use a countersink bit if you are careful. The reason for this is that I don't want any damaged sharp corners over the coming years holding the bar off the correct position it should be in in the T-slot.



After the cutting burrs were cleaned off, the centre of the bar was found in both the X and Y and two holes were drilled and recessed at 3" pitch for two 6mm cap screws.
The register bar was now finished. Time to start hacking away at the vice.



First off, I mounted my two brass aligning bars into the T-slot, then I turned the vice upside down and tightened up the jaws onto the bars.



Then a clamp either side to lock the vice to the table. The fixed vice jaw is now in perfect alignment with the T-slot.



The pictures of cutting the 1/4" deep by 5/8" wide slot were too bad to be used, so I will try to explain it.
I aligned the 1/2" cutter to the centre of the clamp bolt slots and cut right the way across the vice, then by going 1/16" either side of the slot already cut, very gently at the end, until the bar that I had made previously was a push fit into the slot.
Then comes this picture, which shows me using a countersink tool to put a nice chamfer down each edge of the slot, this again is to stop having sharp corners that might cause problems in the future.



Next off was find the centre line of the slot, and the rough centre of the vice, then two holes were drilled and tapped on a 3" pitch.
This shot also shows how nicely the slot I had cut matches up to the cast in slots for the holdown bolts. I need nothing out of alignment that will interfere with the alignment bar sitting perfectly in the T-slot. Even a binding holdown bolt in the slot can push everything out of wack.



The bar fitted perfectly in the slot.



Just to explain a little.

These are dimensions I used are for my mill table slots and vice. You will have to work out the dimensions you require for your particular setup.
I can honestly say, by doing this, it inspires confidence in knowing that your machine is set up to the best it can be, plus also, if you are doing some heavy cutting, you are guaranteed that the vice will not be knocked out of position.

It might seem to be a bit drastic, hacking away at your most probably new vice, but if you take things very steady, it is a job that most people can do, if you can work accurately.

So the vice was dropped into the slot and clamped down, the bolts had plenty of room around them so no binding. Then I put a parallel into the vice jaws, and took a reading of it's face. I do this because sometimes vice jaws get a little battered and can throw out the readings.

Anyway, the pics are just about good enough to see the results, which to me were rather disappointing, a full stroke of about 5" gave a runout of 0.0001". I even belted the tail end of the vice with a rubber mallet, and it didn't even change. I was at least expecting some sort of fight from it, but it gave up with no resistance.







Just a word of warning if you use a parallel for checking like I do. Most reasonably priced sets of parallels are usually fairly good height wise, but sometimes the thicknesses leave little to be desired. Some of mine are at least a couple of thou out over their length. I have one that I keep specifically for high precision work and have owned it for many years, and it is perfectly parallel all round.

So that's it, a bit of an anticlimax I'm afraid. But at least I now know that I can just drop the vice on, bolt it down, and be somewhere near (a tenth out over 5").


John

Offline mzt

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 10:26:32 AM »
Quote
Just a word of warning if you use a parallel for checking like I do. Most reasonably priced sets of parallels are usually fairly good height wise, but sometimes the thicknesses leave little to be desired. Some of mine are at least a couple of thou out over their length. I have one that I keep specifically for high precision work and have owned it for many years, and it is perfectly parallel all round.

Holding a 'tapered' parallel against the fixed jaw through a (soft metal?) rod would do, providing the reference face is truly flat?

Marcello
This is a fitting job,
not a production job that can be measured in.

Offline Ken I

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 04:39:55 PM »
Just to add to Bog's thread...

I used to agonise over swopping the vice for the RT etc. often trying to arrange work around this which in hindsight was fairly silly.

Once I had modified all my gear with keys as per Bog's suggestion, I change fro one to the other with fairly reckless abandon.

I wish I'd done it sooner.

Ken
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Offline mhirst121

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 07:56:46 PM »
This is one of the jobs I always mean to get round to. Reading this post has just reminded me, so next job in the shop will be to do my vice as Bogs has done.
Another great tip Bogs, thanks.

Cheers,
MartinH
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Offline geoff5269

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2012, 08:01:17 PM »
Just to add my method, if your not sure about machining your new vice accurately i fixed a reference bar that rests against the front of the table and has 2 ajusting screws for alignment. This also makes easier to use the vice elsewhere such as drill press,
Geoff


Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2012, 10:34:16 PM »
I like that a lot. I'm certainly not sure about machining the vise or the reference bar accurately.
Thanks for posting your method.
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
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Offline RMO

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 03:11:10 AM »
I just bought a used bridgeport milling vice and it has one of these positioning bars on each side right about where Bogs put his.  I would show a picture, but I am still waiting for my daughter to bring it from California.  It was too heavy to check in.  Couple more weeks.

Mike O

Offline kevin45

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2013, 04:05:17 PM »
If you have a Kurt vise, the bottom already has a keyway in it and Kurt sells the hardened 5/8" keys for the vise.

Another modification I made to the vise when I was working was that I added two .250 dowel holes through the coolant trough and into the vise base. So with the dowel holes, one on each side of the vise, plus the keys on the bottom, I could take the vise off and put it nack on and it would be dead nuts, or I could rotate the vise to any angle, take it back to zero and everything was lined up perfectly saving the time of aligning things back up with the dial indicator.

Offline Pete49

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2013, 06:05:48 AM »
Nice tip John and I will add it to my tool list. The main problem here though is I have a round column mill so when I raise or lower it it loses settings. :'( I did see a fix (I think) in an early MEW I might try to find
Pete
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Offline Maryak

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2013, 06:29:49 AM »
Hi Pete,

There is a fix in MEW involving a triangular key and keyway in the head/column.

I did a more simple mod which consisted of using cap head screws countersunk into the rack and screwing it to the column. I used top, bottom and middle. For all but the most fastidious of ops this appears to be accurate enough to  maintain alignment.

Hope this helps

Best Regards
Bob
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Arbalest

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2015, 09:19:06 PM »
Old post I know but I thought it may be of interest to show my setup.

Some vices have slots for the mounting studs and others just have holes. I didn't fancy milling my vice in case I got it slightly wrong. My vice has mounting holes and I wondered how accurately they were located in relation to the fixed jaw. I placed my reference bar in the T slot and clamped my vice to it upside down as John did with his vice. I then checked the vice mounting holes for parallel to the fixed jaw and was pleased to see they were very accurately placed.

All I had to do then was to turn up a couple of sleeves that were an interference fit in the vice mounting holes and a snug fit for my milling machines T slots. Attached picture shows the result. The sleeves are stepped to suit.



All I have to do now to mount my vice is to carefully lower the two exposed sleeves over the T studs into the slots and tighten down the nuts. In use its within 001" over the jaw width of 4" without any adjustment, just bolting down. If I want to be super accurate I check it with a DTI and give it a gentle tap but it's still quicker than without the sleeves. For most jobs though I just drop it on the studs and tighten the nuts.

If you have a vice where the holes are not accurately placed it may still be worth "truing" them up to use this method?

Offline mklotz

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2015, 11:47:48 PM »
Adjustment for very tiny hole misalignments could be made by making the diameter of one sleeve slightly smaller than the other and torquing the vise about the z-axis while tightening the nuts?

Just thinking out loud here; my vise is mounted with the jaws parallel to the y-axis.
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Offline hopefuldave

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2016, 12:31:06 PM »
I know this is an old thread, but I've been busy...

For slight misalignments with Arbalest's method, one of the sleeves could have the centre hole a few thou" eccentric and a slot across the top, tweak to exact with a suitable screwdriver and install the bolt?

Dave H. (the other one)

Offline Lew Hartswick

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2016, 02:49:03 PM »
This keeps popping up, I guess I should get around to doing it to the mill I use all the time at school. :-)
   ...lew...

Offline ShopShoe

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Re: Getting and keeping your vice straight
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 01:42:49 PM »
My vice is Keyed, So is my Rotary Table.

But just as food for thought, Tom Lipton's take on the subject:

Search Youtube for "Tom's two cents on vise tramming"

If you can't see this for some reason, I quote him:

"You ought to be using your indicator a lot"

Just food for thought

ShopShoe
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 01:46:59 PM by ShopShoe »

 

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