Author Topic: Double 10 improvement questions...  (Read 5763 times)

Offline Intheshed

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Double 10 improvement questions...
« on: April 06, 2016, 06:43:46 PM »
Hello all,
I am working through a generally nicely made D10 engine I got for a song recently, but I have questions.  I have read that they have Cast Iron cylinders, but mine are brass (or gunmetal perhaps), so are the cylinder covers, the top ones being held with 6, not 4 bolts.  Is this normal?
My cylinder drain cocks have levers on which are intended to be connected.
I have reversing gear brackets, but no reversing gear.

I would like to replace bolts and slot headed screws with studs and washers/nuts for a better appearance, but the only 7 BA (!!) bolts I can get are too short to act as studs with their heads cut off.  Can one buy 7BA studding to use or do I have to pay 20 for a tap and die set?  I'd really rather not, mainly because I have taps and dies that my old chum left me, but they're in my son's garage and even he can't find them.

Thanks for any info on these points.

Cheers,
Martin

Offline Johno

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2016, 07:04:30 PM »
Hi Martin,

Are you referring to the Stuart D10? The one I recently completed the heads were each fixed with 5 x 7BA studs 3/8" long!

Heads & Cylinders both CI. BA fixing are readily available in the UK from Stuarts themselves and other specialist suppliers. I can pass on the web details if you wish.

Cheers

Ian

Offline Intheshed

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2016, 07:29:05 PM »
Ian, thanks.  Well this is curiouser and curiouser.  My cylinders are brass or bronze as are the covers.  In fact only the beds and columns  are C.I.  And the reversing gear brackets look diecast with a very definite mould line half way through the thickness of them.  For some reason the holes in the brackets are no known dimension.

If you have any links to fixings of the weird 7 BA I would appreciate it.
I've ordered nuts and materials from Kennions, but they only do 7BA in half inch lengths.

Cheers,
Martin

Offline Johno

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2016, 08:23:13 PM »
Hi Martin,

Stuart's have been in business since the 1890's but have changed hands (and locations) several times. So it's inevitable that there must be lots of variations out there depending on the vintage. However, bit like my old hammer that I have had for over forty years; had few new heads and replacement shafts, but it's still my old hammer! Get the the various web details to you tomorrow if that's ok.

Cheers

Ian

Online Jasonb

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2016, 08:40:39 PM »
There were some dead ringer D10 engines about maybe 10 yrs ago that were mostly brass/bronze and may even have been recast from Stuart originals. Its possible you have one of those, the make escapes me at the moment but I'm sure someone will be along with an answer.

Proper studs theaded at each end are the best option, 3/32" rod will do. but if you want longer bolts to cut down of lengths of allthread/studding then EKP will have what you need

https://www.ekpsupplies.com/

Online steam guy willy

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2016, 09:09:52 PM »
Hi, I use EKP supplies for many items,they actually make BA nuts and bolts themselves and if you ask they may have the odd box of old stock that may suit your requirements. They make all the screws and stuff for all the other suppliers so are very reasonable. When i order stuff before 12 i get it the next day.......also i have a large office block letterbox so getting stuff via royal snail mail is no problem.......usual disclaimer etc etc..........

Offline Intheshed

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2016, 11:40:40 PM »
Thankyou gents, I have checked those people out and will probably use them next time.

I'd be a bit miffed if it turns out to be not a Stuart engine as it was sold to me as such and materials were not obvious because of the dirt.
However, it has been very well built.
I was surprised to find not one, but two steel piston rings on the piston I withdrew.

Cheers,
Martin

Offline rhankey

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2016, 02:27:26 AM »
Martin,
If you don't mind, I'd suggest posting a picture of the engine.  But what you describe does not sound to be a Stuart engine.   Stuart has never made the 10H, 10V or D10's with anything other than cast iron cylinders and covers.  And Stuart's reversing brackets have never been die-cast.  Generally all the reversing brackets are machined from bar stock, and the eccentric straps from gunmetal.  There have been numerous Stuart clones produced, most recently from China that range in quality - some look pretty good at first glance.

Given the cylinders are not cast iron, I wouldn't assume the fasteners are BA.  In fact, if you have slot head screws for the cylinder heads, it's almost certain that they are not BA fasteners.  A Stuart 10H, 10V or D10 would have been spec'd from Stuart to use 7BA studs and nuts (no washers) for the cylinder and valve covers.  In fact, you can order a complete fastener kit for the D10 from Stuart's website.  However BA fasteners won't do you any good if the engine wasn't threaded for such.
Robin

Offline Intheshed

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2016, 10:33:00 AM »
At present, the engine is in bits.
I don't know if the brackets ARE diecast, I was just guessing as they look so crisp.  Perhaps I should have said lost wax.  The engine is old, that's for sure. The chap I bought it from's father built it, so it will have been a considerable time ago.  I think we can say for sure it isn't a Stuart by manufacturer, but only by design. Personally I don't care.  I'm not a Stuart purist.  It's just an engine of a proven design
The slothead screws were holding the engine to the base. On the top cylinder covers there are 6 bolts.  I doubt if the reversing brackets were ever machined from bar stock.  Why should they be when they are a simple shape for a brass casting? others I've seen certainly aren't.  The fasteners are 7 BA. They match measurements in a very old engineers guide.
At Stuart's prices I would not be ordering fastener kits from them!  I want to improve the appearance of the model with studs, washers and nuts, where there are cheaper, less attractive options currently.
Perhaps the gent concerned made brass (gunmetal) bits to fit Stuart underpinnings.

Cheers,
Martin

Offline Johno

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2016, 10:47:19 AM »
Martin,

As promised, in addition to EKP who no doubt  will meet your needs here are some other suppliers of BA fixings; https://maccmodels.co.uk http://www.ajreeves.com . Stuart's themselves do provide spare parts and individual castings which are useful if major machining errors happen or refurbishments are undertaken. However, the fixings packs whilst a very useful part of the whole kits, but are certainly not the most economical way to purchase BA fixings as a stand alone item.

Cheers

Ian

Offline Intheshed

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2016, 11:11:08 AM »
Ian, thanks.  I'll probably stick with EKP and BA Bolts now I know about them.  I was looking at Stuart's price list for the reversing gear and they were asking more or less 6 for anything, including tiny sticks of steel rod!
So, sourcing elsewhere has become part of the game now!<G>

Cheers,
Martin

Offline Ian S C

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2016, 03:26:26 PM »
Martin, how old do you think it is, there is one here that dates back to the late 1920s, early 1930s with  Gunmetal castings, also an SH  Progress of a similar vintage, also GM. The 10 is the earlyer type of frame from the newer ones. Sorry about all the rubbish in the background.
Ian S C
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 03:58:05 PM by Ian S C »

Offline Roger B

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2016, 06:54:20 PM »
One of my local suppliers in Switzerland offers what look to be Stuart models in bronze.

http://shop-holzapfeldampf.ch/contents/de-ch/d381.html

http://shop-holzapfeldampf.ch/contents/de-ch/d383.html
Best regards

Roger

Offline Intheshed

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2016, 07:21:11 PM »
Ian,
it is probably from the 60's, maybe?  I rather like the early standard's shape, without the web, but it isn't that old.  The steam chest cover is just a flat plate of 1/8th brass, the cylinder cover has 6 screws and a largish bolt in the middle for no apparent reason, which won't come out!

Roger, I like the central screw-operated reversing lever on that Swiss one, but mine has C.I. standards and beds.

Offline Intheshed

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2016, 06:54:51 PM »
Well, my 7 BA studs came from BA Bolts this morning, but Kennions charge a lot more to use MyHermes, who traditionally are horribly slow compared with, say iPostparcels or of course, the Post Office.  I'm expecting what they tell me is on its way, maybe Monday/Tuesday.  But no matter, I was going through old boxes of lathey bits and bobs yesterday and I found an unmarked die which turned out to be a 7BA!  Pity the matching tap wasn't around but saving myself at least 13 was a nice pressie,  as was getting well over twenty quid for 2 Austin 7 bolts I found on a shelf, on ebay!!  Madness, but I ain't complaining!
And yes, my odd D10 with brass parts has all 7 BA, no metric.  Curiouser and curiouser.

Martin

Offline Intheshed

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2016, 08:32:31 PM »
Well, as required I found this picture of the engine in as bought condition.


Martin

Offline Johno

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2016, 05:42:23 PM »
Hi Martin,

For comparison a photo of my recently completed D10.

Cheers

Ian

Offline Intheshed

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2016, 02:12:56 PM »
Very nice, Johno.  I started off painting mine a similar colour, but then decided I don't really like green for engines, so am now painting it in good old Rover Teal Blue. I have a 1/4 litre of cellulose in that colour, so the bed plate and one standard are already painted.
But the main thing is to get the two sets of reversing gear made.  Not because I want to go backuds with a boat, but because it looks so nice, all waggling about and makes the engne worth as much as possible.  All my stuff is potentially pension pot, I'm afraid.

Martin

Offline Johno

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2016, 11:00:00 AM »
I also liked the idea of adding the extra interest of reversing gear to my D10. However, that desire is now being met by my next project in the shape of a Compound Twin that comes with reversing gear. Nevertheless, I am sure I will return to the D10 and add reversing gear one day.

What materials are you using? I am aware the Stuart's do; drawings, individual bits and bobs to full kits at 60+.

Cheers

Ian

Offline Intheshed

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2016, 11:16:26 AM »
Johno,
I have materials, some I already had, some I've bought recently quite cheaply.  I found drawings on the net and what I can't find I can interpolate.  60 a set is not an option!
I'm hoping to use 3mm brass for the eccentric straps as I have some already.  That will necessitate that the rods end in a T that can be fixed to the strap with 10 BA bolts.

Martin

Offline Johno

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2016, 11:21:54 AM »
Sounds good. Looking forward to seeing the results.

Ian

Offline Ian S C

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2016, 02:39:34 PM »
Martin, back on April 7th there was mentioned the hex on the cylinder cover, on the one in my photo this is drilled and tapped, and has a drain cock fitted, along with two in the normal position.
Ian S C

Offline Intheshed

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Re: Double 10 improvement questions...
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2016, 10:53:41 PM »
Ian,
is there really a need for three drain cocks per cylinder?  I can't shift the one I've tried to move, so it's probably better left.

I finished painting the bedplate and sanded the paint off the flat surfaces, but the damned paint came off for half a mil all round.  No way I'd repaint it all, so it's a good job I bought those 4 fine sable brushes tother day.

Now polishing the crankshaft, which, I must say does not have a great finish on any of its journals, so probably best left alone as I don't have the gear to make new.  The centre bearing isn't great either, but I have no idea how it runs and won't do till all is finished and timed.  I've taken the eccentrics off now to get the bearings off and next time any go on they'll be for the reversing gear.  Heaven knows how we find out where they go relative to each other then!  I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. In the mean time the crank webs look a good deal smarter than they did as do the bearing tops and oiler cups.

Cheers,
Martin