Author Topic: Really Small Hardware  (Read 10643 times)

Offline sssfox

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Really Small Hardware
« on: March 11, 2016, 07:57:07 PM »
As I have said other places, I'm preparing to build an engine based on the MEM Corliss.
I really haven't used really small hardware before and was wondering if anyone has a source for small samples of nuts and bolts below 4-40 and the equivalent metric sizes?  I don't mind buying a bag of 25 when I'm planning on using them, but not just to see how big they are.

I have the taps and dies for everything, but the determining factor as to size is usually the head of the bolt and the size of the nut.  I can find those dimensions, but nothing really beats seeing them in person, so to speak.

Thanks,
Steve Fox

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2016, 08:10:20 PM »
Steve, try your local fastener supply house or a really good old fashioned hardware store. Places like Fastenal or similar would likely give you a sample or two.

Bill

Offline sssfox

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2016, 08:36:51 PM »
I already tried.  We only have one old-style hardware store left in town (two closed and one burned down) and they only go down to #2-56 and not a large selection of those.  My fastener store (Fastenal), has had a box minimum for the last five years at least.  I didn't ask for samples since they don't break a box any longer, but I don't believe they go below #10 anyway.  Last time I went, I was looking for #4-40 and they didn't carry them.

I have tried calling several other fastener companies in the last week and they all sell by the box.  After that, I didn't even ask their smallest size.  Times have changes.

A box of #0-90 must be really small.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2016, 08:48:51 PM »
http://www.americanmodeleng.com/id42.html

Don't know if they will do samples but they use a smaller than standard hex which looks more liek the old style fasteners

Likewise if you are going for metric than don't use standard ISO size hex, there are a few european makers of more scale looking fixings

Offline Jo

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2016, 08:50:03 PM »
:headscratch: 4-40 is bigger than what I normally use. For the triples I am making my own  ;) they are equivalent to your 3-56's. The smallest bolts I have made were 16BA which is the same sort of size as your 000-120. What is nice about making your own is you get a nice unthreaded shank with just the right amount of thread  8)

There must be an on line model engineer supplier in your country that will do you what you need. In the UK I would point you to EKP  :-\.

Jo
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Offline ICEpeter

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2016, 09:02:17 PM »
Hello Steve,
I purchase my small fastener hardware from typically two places. Both suppliers can be found on the internet. The first one is Micro Fastener, the other is Fastener express (www.fastener-express.com) Don't have the Micro Fastener web address handy right now but can be found when you google the name. Both companies sell the fasteners in imperial and metric down to M 1.5 in steel / ss / aluminum. Hope my info helps.

Peter J.

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Offline sssfox

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2016, 09:11:01 PM »
:headscratch: 4-40 is bigger than what I normally use. For the triples I am making my own  ;) they are equivalent to your 3-56's. The smallest bolts I have made were 16BA which is the same sort of size as your 000-120. What is nice about making your own is you get a nice unthreaded shank with just the right amount of thread  8)

There must be an on line model engineer supplier in your country that will do you what you need. In the UK I would point you to EKP  :-\.

Jo

I've never heard of 000-120.  I know watchmakers use very small threads, but I don't know what they are.  Do you thread your 000-120 with a die or a threading plate?

I sent an email to Micro Fasteners asking if they can come up with a sample set.  I've purchased from them before and have been satisfied.  I'll try these other places.

Thanks all.

Offline sssfox

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2016, 09:18:41 PM »
:headscratch: 4-40 is bigger than what I normally use. For the triples I am making my own  ;) they are equivalent to your 3-56's. The smallest bolts I have made were 16BA which is the same sort of size as your 000-120. What is nice about making your own is you get a nice unthreaded shank with just the right amount of thread  8)

Jo

That is always an option, I've done it before.  I would like to at least have an example so I know I am making the correctly.

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2016, 11:15:47 PM »
Most of the best US sources were listed but here is a thread I started on this subject:
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,628.msg5766.html#msg5766

Dan
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Offline Allen Smithee

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2016, 11:35:25 PM »
There must be an on line model engineer supplier in your country that will do you what you need. In the UK I would point you to EKP  :-\.

Or modelfixings

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Offline Jo

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2016, 07:33:16 AM »
I've never heard of 000-120.  I know watchmakers use very small threads, but I don't know what they are.  Do you thread your 000-120 with a die or a threading plate?

I looked it up on my chart as I don't use American threads ::) The thread on a 16BA is a nice thick 0.8mm (0.031")

I always use a dies held in the tailstock. But Mr Silky reminded me that he is more than capable of threading down to 250 Tpi  :o

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2016, 07:40:44 AM »
Quote
But Mr Silky reminded me that he is more than capable of threading down to 250 Tpi 
Mr scratchy also has 0.004" / rev feed :LittleDevil:

For scale looking metric fasteners in the UK Bruce is the only place I know that does machined small & tall hex, Model fixings are OK for barstock & aero engines but out of place on a Corliss.

Offline Jo

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2016, 07:51:18 AM »
250 TPI is a threading rate not surfacing. I thought the Warco machines only went down to 80 Tpi  :noidea:.

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2016, 07:58:40 AM »
250 TPI is a threading rate not surfacing. Jo

That was the point I was making, its so fine that I could do the same using the feed screw. What would be the thread depth on something that fine?

56tpi on mine unless I use extra changewheels, (or 0.2mm metric)

Offline Stuart

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2016, 08:03:46 AM »
Make em then you get what you want not what they think you want

EKP are very good as is model fixings

But we need studs  :cartwheel: not chopped down set screws

Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline Jo

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2016, 08:14:13 AM »
What would be the thread depth on something that fine?

It depends if you have ground your tool for cutting a thread with a flat crest or sharp  ::) then you can use the old rule of thumb of threads per inch divided by 0.75 or 0.866 depending on sharp pointy tool or not. But when you get to this size it is all about making both threads match and fit  ;).

Marv has some software tools that will do this for you.

Jo

P.S. I remembered that Bill had been doing a little threading around: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,4856.msg94029.html#msg94029

« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 08:40:52 AM by Jo »
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Offline Stuart

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2016, 09:45:06 AM »
250 TPI is a threading rate not surfacing. I thought the Warco machines only went down to 80 Tpi  :noidea:.

Jo


Jo

I must be a bit dim today  :slap:  :Argue: but I thought that all lathe work cut a spiral it's just sometimes we call it a thread when it's a bit course  :stir:  :hammerbash:

Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline jadge

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2016, 10:28:38 AM »
..............but I thought that all lathe work cut a spiral...............

Assuming the lathe turns parallel then it generates a helix, unless you want a NPT or BSPT thread.  ;)  Facing on the lathe generates a spiral.

Andrew

Offline Stuart

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2016, 10:35:41 AM »
Of course a screw is a helix  :old: :facepalm: :slap:   I D Ten T Stuart

So it's a course helix is a screw and a finish cut is a fine helix  :facepalm:  :lolb:

Sorry peeps I must be back in the engineering mess room today boy did we have some wind ups

Stuart

Sorry to the OP for getting your heard OT
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline sssfox

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2016, 01:47:25 AM »
Well, I broke down and ordered 1500 stainless steel nuts from Amazon today.  Fifteen types, everything from 0-80 to 12-28 that I could find.  They weren't expensive, between $2.83 and $9.97 for a pack of 100.

I also started building a table to show all of the different dimensions.  I started with the Table at American Model Engineering Supply and expanded it.  The entries for the nuts I ordered have some dimensions listed, but they don't seem to be correct to me, based on what I know so far.  They are supposed to start arriving on Wednesday, so I can measure them when they get here.

Hopefully, from what I learn from the items I ordered and the table from American Model Engineering Supply, I can figure out what I'm doing.  At the least, I should be able to narrow the choice of bolts and screws down to two or three.

Steve Fox

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2016, 02:02:33 AM »
And a lifetime supply of nuts as well  :cartwheel:

Bill

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2016, 07:33:08 AM »
I expect all the ones you have ordered will be larger hex than American Model Eng as they are the modern mass produced ones. I too have a supply of these as they are ones supplied with various models that just look horrid so I substitute them with something more in keeping.

Offline Allen Smithee

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2016, 12:41:26 PM »
It depends if you have ground your tool for cutting a thread with a flat crest or sharp  ::)

Cutting the external threads is easy enough; it's grinding the boring too to do the internal thread of that LH 17BA nut that gets a bit tricky...

AS
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2016, 12:52:35 PM »
It depends if you have ground your tool for cutting a thread with a flat crest or sharp  ::)

Cutting the external threads is easy enough; it's grinding the boring too to do the internal thread of that LH 17BA nut that gets a bit tricky...

AS

Was that a Typo ?as 27BA would be nearer to Jo's 250tpi :stir:

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2016, 02:16:21 PM »
I will not buy any hex fastener for model work that does not list the AF hex size. The thread I linked is sources of model hex bolts or other small useful small fasteners.

The selection is not as good at Microfasteners but they do stock a selection of small pattern hex nuts and bolts and they do list the hex size so you know what you will be getting.

Here is the choice of small pattern SS nuts:
http://www.microfasteners.com/small-pattern.html

Dan
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Offline sssfox

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2016, 02:43:25 PM »
I expect all the ones you have ordered will be larger hex than American Model Eng as they are the modern mass produced ones. I too have a supply of these as they are ones supplied with various models that just look horrid so I substitute them with something more in keeping.

I have no doubt that will be the case.  I just wanted something to use as a comparison.

Offline sssfox

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2016, 03:01:49 PM »
I will not buy any hex fastener for model work that does not list the AF hex size. The thread I linked is sources of model hex bolts or other small useful small fasteners.

The selection is not as good at Microfasteners but they do stock a selection of small pattern hex nuts and bolts and they do list the hex size so you know what you will be getting.

Here is the choice of small pattern SS nuts:
http://www.microfasteners.com/small-pattern.html

Dan

All the ones I purchased have the AF measurement listed, I just don't believe the measurements.
Here's one example for 1-64:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009EEX2G2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01

It lists the AF width as 3/64.
American Modeling lists hex used as 7/64 for 1-72.

I find that hard to believe.  Once I get them, I can measure for myself.
I have had no luck at all contacting any of these places in the past to get info.  They just quote what is on the site.

Am I missing something?

Offline Jo

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2016, 03:11:19 PM »
Was that a Typo ?as 27BA would be nearer to Jo's 250tpi :stir:

Sorry the standard TPI available on Mr Silky only goes down to 254 TPI i.e. 22 BA (0.37mm major diameter).

17BA is 149 1/2 TPI, but for some reason that is not a standard pitch for Mr Silky  ::).

Jo
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Offline Allen Smithee

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2016, 03:15:43 PM »
17BA is 149 1/2 TPI, but for some reason that is not a standard pitch for Mr Silky  ::).

Well that'll teach you to get one of those cheap Hardinge things - get yourse3lf a proper Myford...

 :ROFL:

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Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2016, 03:19:26 PM »
All the ones I purchased have the AF measurement listed, I just don't believe the measurements.
Here's one example for 1-64:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009EEX2G2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01

It lists the AF width as 3/64.
American Modeling lists hex used as 7/64 for 1-72.

They have messed up the listing. Small Parts used to be a good source of parts until Amazon gobbled them up and have no idea what they are selling.

3/64" is .0469 and a #1 screw is .073" OD. It is going to be a bit tricky to drill the tap hole in that nut. They obviously mean 5/32 AF and 3/64" thick.

If you are looking for 000-120 0r 0000-160 go here:
http://jimorrisco.com/miniature-screws-and-fasteners/miniature-screws.html
They even have chasers for Geometric die heads for those sizes but the price for the chasers is a bit staggering.

Dan
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 03:25:55 PM by Dan Rowe »
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Offline Stuart

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2016, 03:19:47 PM »
So then Jo if I set a feed of 0.002 inches will I cut a 500 tpi thread assuming my eye sight and quorn can grind the tool bit  :slap: be interesting to use the thread dial  :hammerbash:

 My taxi is just pulled up by for now

Stuart

Or shall I chuck some more corn on the ground
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline Jo

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2016, 03:37:32 PM »
So then Jo if I set a feed of 0.002 inches will I cut a 500 tpi thread assuming my eye sight and quorn can grind the tool bit  :slap: be interesting to use the thread dial  :hammerbash:

:headscratch: Thread dial  :headscratch: thread Dial I remember the Colchester has one of those: It lets you do multi start threads   :lolb:

Jo
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Offline Stuart

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2016, 03:51:44 PM »
Well to be truthful my lathe don't have one either , slung it in the parts drawer.

I worked with Mr Meek to sort out the dog clutch for the big bore Myford so now I have set table trips ( threading and turning ) repeatable thread pick up in inferior or metric ( depending on the change wheel set up )

Just push the little lever I goes one way pull it and it goes back to wence it came  :stickpoke:

Stuart


Forgot for 8 ba and others I use the geometric die head
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Offline Jo

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2016, 03:58:21 PM »
I find that cutting 14 and 16BA threads with a Die a bit risky the metal has a nasty habit of breaking off in the die :(

Yes Mr Silky has one of those and six different positions for thread starting. Not that I can think why you would want a six start thread  :noidea:

Jo
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Offline Allen Smithee

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2016, 04:37:05 PM »
Yes Mr Silky has one of those and six different positions for thread starting. Not that I can think why you would want a six start thread  :noidea:

Multi-start threads (and especially multi-start screwjacks) have higher reliability for safety-critical applications because wear and failure in one thread can be mitigated by the other one. The screwjacks used in (for example) the tailplane trim actuators in aircraft are a single-point-of-failure and must be at least twin-start and sometimes triple-start for this reason. It's also a way of getting a stronger engagement where some other factor limits the thread depth for some reason like a breech thread. Can't think why you'd want six, but it's probably no harder than providing three at the manufacturing stage.

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Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2016, 08:10:32 PM »

Here's one example for 1-64:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009EEX2G2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01


If you read the product description it says it meets ASME B18.6.3 specifications. Here is a link to that specification:
http://www.sportpilot.info/sp/Machinery/27_Fast_08B.pdf

It came from the Machinery's Handbook 27 ed. The AF for both #0 and #1 screws is 5/32"

This is the specifications for most of the commercial machine screws that are common in the US and they do not look good for models especially the smaller sizes.

Dan
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Offline sssfox

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2016, 10:33:21 PM »
Thanks, Dan.  I looked in my 28th Edition Large Print Version and that table is on page 1549.
There are a lot of machine screw tables after that one.  Some go down to 0000 and some don't.

Is it because the ANSI standards go smaller on some types than others?
For example, the plain and slotted hexagon head types only goes to 1.

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2016, 12:50:41 AM »
Steve,
Thread standards change over time. The original ASME machine screw standard dates to 1907 and was for gage numbers 0-30. I am not sure when the standards included 00, 000, and 0000, but the current standards do not have anything larger than a #12. I have both #14 and #16 dies in my collection.

Dan

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Offline sssfox

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2016, 01:01:51 AM »
I guess that explains why so many companies start at 1/4" and go up.

Every day I find out more that I don't know.

Steve Fox

Offline GailinNM

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2016, 05:49:34 AM »
Sometimes you just have to make up your own hardware and standards.  Here are some M1-,25 X 2mm long screws made in my shop for an engine project.  The hex heads are 0.061 across the flats with a machined in washer face.  This AF is just a little bit large but suits my shop made hex driver made using a 6-32 set screw.  More screws were made 3 and 4 mm long. With failing eyesight CNC is about the only way I can make parts like this anymore. The screws were single pointed on the CNC lathe and the washer diameter turned long enough to cut the heads out of.  Started with 3/32 inch diameter 12L14 "bar" stock.  The he cutoff nub was cut off and the hex head machined on the CNC ,mill.  If you look close at the first photo you can see 2 screws that sneaked into the finished pile  with out the head being milled.
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Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2016, 11:59:21 AM »
That was a fun "Where's Waldo" shot.  ;D
Nice screws! That would stretch my patience.
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Offline Alan Haisley

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Re: Really Small Hardware
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2016, 05:34:50 PM »
It depends if you have ground your tool for cutting a thread with a flat crest or sharp  ::)

Cutting the external threads is easy enough; it's grinding the boring too to do the internal thread of that LH 17BA nut that gets a bit tricky...

AS
Easier to make a tap. :LittleDevil:
Alan

 

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