Author Topic: Help with Corliss Engine (Read 7930 times)

sssfox · « **on:** March 10, 2016, 01:20:34 AM »

I've been collecting material to build a twin cylinder version based on the MEM Corliss. I have most of what I need now and I have shifted to the research phase. Over the past couple of weeks, I've been looking for a prototype to help me with the details, but haven't been able to find one.

Has anyone EVER seen a twin cylinder Corliss that wasn't a compound engine, i.e. with a high pressure cylinder on one side that fed the exhaust into the low pressure cylinder on the other side?

I've found a couple of models, but no full scale. I haven't had any difficulty finding twin cylinder slide valve engines, although, they aren't common. Most of the ones I have seen were illustrations, not photographs. Maybe for marketing purposes?

That got me thinking, I've always liked twin cylinder engines because they can start from virtually any position of the flywheel. When steam engines were in widespread use, were there any other reasons, other than VERY large engines, to install a two cylinder mill type engine instead of a larger one cylinder engine? I can't recall ever seeing one in person.

As an aside, my dad worked for a railroad and he took me there several times in the late 1950s and early 1960s just to show me steam engines before they went to scrap. Among the things he showed me on the last trip were two steam powered air compressors. One was still working, but the other was in the process of being cut up by a guy with a torch. They had 5ft or 6ft flywheels and supplied compressed air for the entire yard. They were being replaced by a 20hp electric compressor on an 80 gallon tank. I asked why there were two of them and he told me it was because they needed an uninterrupted supply of air and had to be able to shut one down for maintenance or repair. That made sense to me and I figured that was why they didn't have just one with two cylinders.

At every location where I have seen a working steam engine still hooked to equipment, none had two engines with one used as a spare. I have never been able to figure out if it was because they hardly ever broke or factories didn't run 24hrs a day, so they did maintenance and repairs at night.

Anybody got any answers?

Maryak · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2016, 01:38:49 AM »

Your question is to me similar to how long is a piece of string?

As far back as one can go in the industrial age, services deemed essential had/have some form of backup system. The backup in many cases did not replicate the main system, rather it was smaller and backed up what was/is truly essential.

The choice between simple and compounded engines is usually one of ease of operation/maintenance versus economy.

Bob

sssfox · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2016, 01:49:17 AM »

Sorry to have taken up your time.
I'll try to ask better questions next time.

Steve Fox

crueby · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2016, 02:33:59 AM »

Don't give up too easy.

One example was the 1876 exhibition engine,twin beam with corliss valve gear.

It may be most were compound since they were more efficient, efficiency being the main draw of a corliss valve setup.

sssfox · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2016, 12:54:36 PM »

Maryak,
I apologize for my last post, it was unwarranted.
Steve Fox

pgp001 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2016, 01:10:13 PM »

Efficiency was everything at the time Corliss engines were being built and used, I have personally not come across a double high pressure twin (I am not saying there never were any)
You will also find that a lot of these engines were fitted with condensers as well in a further bid to improve efficiency.

The fact that a twin would self start was not too important because they were only ever stopped very infrequently, maybe once a day at a shift change. These engines normally have a barring engine which is used to position the crank into a starting position ready for steam to be applied.

Out of interest, I am building a 1/16 scale Corliss tandem compound which has the features I describe above.

Phil

Jasonb · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2016, 01:24:15 PM »

I suppose you could always build it as a double high but make one cylinder larger externally so it looks like a low pressure one and add a dummy link pipe. That way you will not have to worry about too many mechanical alterations to the design and will have a larger choice of original engines. Also unless you are going to be running it on reasonably high steam pressures it won't compound anyway, certainly not if air run.

As the others have said why would an engine maker go to the trouble of building an efficient corliss engine to then only use half the energy of the costly steam?

sssfox · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2016, 03:47:11 PM »

Quote from: crueby on March 10, 2016, 02:33:59 AM

It may be most were compound since they were more efficient, efficiency being the main draw of a corliss valve setup.

crueby, You must be correct. I was afraid of that and the more I read, the more it becomes apparent that was the case. I just went through three more books from the late 1800s and found nothing to the contrary. In fact, from what I have read, the larger the cylinder, the more efficient it is at retaining heat, which leads to higher efficiency, so there is no reason to build a twin cylinder engine that isn't compound unless the desired output is larger than the capacity of a single cylinder, which appears to be somewhere north of 800hp.

Corliss had deals with most, if not all, of the companies where he installed engines. He charged a fixed cost or a percentage of fuel savings. According to the records, most companies took the percentage of fuel savings, which turned out to be much more expensive than the fixed cost would've been.

I also read that the low pressure cylinder was one to seven times the volume of the high pressure cylinder. I have no idea how that works out in the modelling world using compressed air and/or steam. If I'm going to proceed with this, I guess I need to research some of the model compound engines to find out what ratio and valve timing they use for the second cylinder.

I watched the "Starting the Big Red Corliss Steam Engine" video here:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIza2qnOgQY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIza2qnOgQY</a>

At 4:44, It says "the LP cylinder is working with expanded steam therefore is no need for Corliss gear although it has got one for reasons of balance.

It strikes me as odd that they would go to the trouble of installing all of that extra equipment just for reasons of balance. I really like that flywheel.

I'm sure there are other factors involved in these designs, but some knowledge is assumed to be so well known and apparent at the time that it isn't written down. What was obvious to people at the time, isn't so obvious to us now. Since all of the people who designed and installed these incredible examples of technology are long gone, I guess I'll never know.

kvom · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2016, 05:15:31 PM »

Since there is only one regulator controlling cutoff, I assume that the LP cylinder gets the same cutoff. Although the steam in the LP cylinder is expanded, it still has energy available from further expansion. That's why there were 3 and 4 cylinder compounds possible.

One of the benefits of the Corliss design was keeping boiler pressure constant. I wonder if the valve on the LP cylinder results in the exhaust valve pressure remaining constant as well, and whether that also has efficiency benefits.

Alyn Foundry · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2016, 05:38:32 PM »

Hello sssfox.

I have been here on many occasions with my models in the past. These engines are majestic.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIb5_qDimho" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIb5_qDimho</a>

If memory serves each stroke delivered 4 tons of water to the reservoir situated some miles away !!

Kind regards, Graham.

sssfox · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2016, 06:50:25 PM »

We have completely lost the ability to build that technology. Why? Because cheap, fast, small and disposable is better than big and slow that lasts forever.

What is missing at 2:37? It looks like a piston rod with nothing connected to the end and not enough room to put anything if it was connected.

Jo · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2016, 07:02:08 PM »

The tail rods used to drive a double acting force pump but over the years the bed fractured and the well pumps were removed to lighten the load.

Jo

steam guy willy · « **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2016, 03:36:26 PM »

You could look at the Forncett Steam Musem site .They have quite a few old engines there.....just down the road from me. I go there occasionally and if you would like could take a load of photos for you. Willy, Norwich

sssfox · « **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2016, 07:33:17 PM »

Willy,
I would like that. I appreciate any info I can get.

I looked at their site and with theirs, as well as most others I have found, the online documentation is severely lacking. I'm sure most, if not all of the websites are run by volunteers with higher priorities. That makes it difficult to even find existing engines from my chair, much less examples that have been scrapped. I did find a book that showed there were seven major types of Corliss engines over the years. I don't know if it had to do with increased efficiency or patent issues or both. The last one had the valves on the ends of the cylinder, not the top and bottom as earlier ones. I have never seen an engine configured that way.

From what I did see, the Forncett Steam Museum has two particularly interesting engines, the 150hp Vickers Armstrong cross compound and the Hick Hargreaves 50 HP horizontal single mill engine with Inglis and Spencer's Corliss valve gear. The Robey 200 HP tandem compound mill engine may be worth a look, but there isn't enough shown in the picture to tell.

Those cross compound engines are of particular interest, but I don't believe there is enough time left in my life to build one.

steam guy willy · « **Reply #14 on:** March 12, 2016, 04:28:12 PM »

I would like that. I appreciate any info I can get.

From what I did see, the Forncett Steam Museum has two particularly interesting engines, the 150hp Vickers Armstrong cross compound and the Hick Hargreaves 50 HP horizontal single mill engine with Inglis and Spencer's Corliss valve gear.
Hi. sssfox, The museum has produced a video called Dr Frances i presume I have a copy i could send to you if you would like. The Mus has a steam up once a month and is open other sundays. They also have a Tuesday work gang day and a Model engineers day in October. I am on good terms with the management especially with Bill Starling. so it is possible to get basic measurements and photos and Videos as well. You can contact me on email at steamguywilly@icloud.com or on 07796926784
regards
Willy .....

sssfox · « **Reply #15 on:** March 12, 2016, 05:03:19 PM »

Willy,
I sent you an email.

steam guy willy · « **Reply #16 on:** March 12, 2016, 06:12:36 PM »

Here is a short Utube video of Forncet

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkMztPRO2NE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkMztPRO2NE</a> Hope this useful, thanks for email........willy

crueby · « **Reply #17 on:** March 12, 2016, 09:27:47 PM »

Thanks for the video Willy! Looks like a great museum, wish I was closer!

sssfox · « **Reply #18 on:** March 13, 2016, 01:05:01 AM »

I like that red Corliss. It has yet another type of release mechanism that I can't figure out how it works.

Thanks, Willy.

Maryak · « **Reply #19 on:** March 14, 2016, 12:52:15 AM »

Below is a list of books which I found invaluable when drawing up the MEM Corliss.

Handbook of Corliss Steam Engines - F.W. Shillito Jr
Handbook on the Steam Engine - Haeder & Powles
The Layout of Corliss Valve Gears - Sanford A. Moss
New Catechism of the Steam Engine - N. Hawkins
The Relative Proportions of the Steam Engine - William D. Marks

These are available for download as pdfs from Google Books and/or Archive.org.

HTH

Regards
Bob

PS - If you cannot access them let me know and I will do a big file transfer to your email.

sssfox · « **Reply #20 on:** March 14, 2016, 01:26:49 AM »

Thanks Bob,

I had the first one from a search I did for everything I could find with Corliss in the title. I think it's about 15 books. I probably have the one on Layout of the Corliss Valve Gears, but couldn't find it right now. I downloaded the rest of your list. Looks like a have a lot more reading to do.

Thanks,
Steve Fox

crueby · « **Reply #21 on:** March 14, 2016, 01:45:19 AM »

Thanks much Bob! Going to look them up....

crueby · « **Reply #22 on:** March 14, 2016, 05:38:35 PM »

Bob - found the books, looks like some great info there, starting to read...

Thanks!!!

Steve - the Layout one is up on the Google Books search, go to Google, click on the Books tab, and search there.

sssfox · « **Reply #23 on:** March 14, 2016, 06:22:34 PM »

crueby, thanks for your help, but I meant I couldn't find it on my computer. I found it on Google Books. Matter of fact, I'm reading it right now.

I have approximately 20 terabytes of books across 12 drives, so it's not unusual that I lose one occasionally. Sometimes, the name a book is saved under isn't the official title of the book. I try to fix that when I save it, but sometimes I forget.

Steve Fox

Maryak · « **Reply #24 on:** March 14, 2016, 08:14:49 PM »

Quote from: sssfox on March 14, 2016, 06:22:34 PM

I have approximately 20 terabytes of books across 12 drives, so it's not unusual that I lose one occasionally. Sometimes, the name a book is saved under isn't the official title of the book. I try to fix that when I save it, but sometimes I forget.

Steve Fox

I thought I was up there with 1.5TB of videos but now I can see I'm a rank amateur in the storage arena

Bob

sssfox · « **Reply #25 on:** March 15, 2016, 02:00:03 AM »

I'm going through the books that Bob told me about. I'm currently on the New Catechism of the Steam Engine. I found these entries:

On page 206:
This engine is built by the Frick Company, Waynesboro, Franklin Co., in works established 1853 and incorporated 1885. They make the Corliss Engine in Horizontal or vertical form, condensing or non-condensing, single or in pairs. "compound" engines, Tandem, cross, triple or quadruple.

On page 207:
Figure 152 represents a "right hand" rear view of a non-condensing Corliss engine, arranged for another engine to be added if desired. It will be noticed that the end of the shaft projects beyond the pillow-block already provided with a key. The shaft is made strong enough and the band wheel of sufficient size to take care of double the power of one engine.

Do these entries sound like both of these companies built two cylinder, non-condensing, non-compound engines? I'm not 100% sure of the terminology, but it sounds to me like they did, once upon a time. Now, whether anyone ordered one is a different matter, I guess.

Steve Fox

steam guy willy · « **Reply #26 on:** March 21, 2016, 01:52:51 PM »

There is a Utube video showing a cordless engine running called Historic Waterworks Museum Goulburn NSW Australia Hope this is of interest
Willbert

crueby · « **Reply #27 on:** March 21, 2016, 01:59:17 PM »

Interesting detail on that engine, I like the looks of the engine block, how it curves in around the cylinder till it gets to the valves rather than being one vertical wall.

bytewise · « **Reply #28 on:** March 22, 2016, 12:02:36 AM »

Mill and pumping stations only had to run in one direction and usually ran a long time before being shut down. The only reason for multiple cylinders was for compounding.
Marine engines on the other hand had to run equally well in either direction. They also had to start and stop frequently during maneuvering. Therefor they usually had two or more cylinders for easy starting.

crueby · « **Reply #29 on:** March 22, 2016, 12:43:58 AM »

Were corliss style engines common on ships?

bytewise · « **Reply #30 on:** March 22, 2016, 12:51:21 PM »

I have not seen any ref to Corliss type engines on ships. Marine engines used simple slide valves. I have not seen any use of early cut off control. They used double or triple expansion to increase efficiency.

Maryak · « **Reply #31 on:** March 23, 2016, 01:56:42 AM »

Quote from: bytewise on March 22, 2016, 12:51:21 PM

I have not seen any ref to Corliss type engines on ships. Marine engines used simple slide valves. I have not seen any use of early cut off control. They used double or triple expansion to increase efficiency.

Propulsion Marine Engines used a variety of valve mechanisms, (Poppet, Cam, Joy, eccentric etc), and most controlled cut off , (normally in the ahead direction only, with full admission astern). The predominant valve system being Stephensons link with two eccentrics and a combination of piston and slide/Cameron valves. Non of my Marine Engineering manuals have any reference to Corliss engines.

Regards
Bob

steam guy willy · « **Reply #32 on:** March 23, 2016, 11:37:28 PM »

Hi Steve found these drawings from a book dated 1897. Hope they are of interest
Willy

crueby · « **Reply #33 on:** March 23, 2016, 11:54:34 PM »

Willy, great drawings! What is the name of the book?

steam guy willy · « **Reply #34 on:** March 25, 2016, 12:47:07 AM »

Quote from: crueby on March 23, 2016, 11:54:34 PM

Willy, great drawings! What is the name of the book?

This is the book and it is full of really good drawings of all manner of engines and machinery from the 1880's including one of the crank bearing with the more secure cap............

fumopuc · « **Reply #35 on:** April 09, 2016, 06:00:36 AM »

Hi Willy, I have found the book in a UK online second hand book Shop for 7 or 8 GBP. It is a pleasure to see the drawings. Thanks for the tip.

steam guy willy · « **Reply #36 on:** April 12, 2016, 12:55:03 AM »

Propulsion Marine Engines used a variety of valve mechanisms, (Poppet, Cam, Joy, eccentric etc), and most controlled cut off , (normally in the ahead direction only, with full admission astern). The predominant valve system being Stephensons link with two eccentrics and a combination of piston and slide/Cameron valves. Non of my Marine Engineering manuals have any reference to Corliss engines.

Regards
Bob
[/quote]
Hi Bob , i have found this reference from the Engineer 1868/07/03................you can find it on Graces Guide.........
regards
willy

Maryak · « **Reply #37 on:** April 12, 2016, 01:55:19 AM »

Thanks Willy,

The indicator diagram is interesting especially as the biggest problems appear to be at the exhaust on one stroke........................probably the opposite of what I would have expected.

Regards
Bob

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Author Topic: Help with Corliss Engine (Read 7930 times)